r/politics • u/Murky-Site7468 • 4d ago

'Chill The F**k Out': John Fetterman Urges Democrats To Stick With Joe Biden | The Pennsylvania senator reminded panicked Democrats on Friday that he too had a bad debate once, yet he went on to win his Senate seat.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-debate-john-fetterman_n_667ea850e4b0415858d6a2f1
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u/essidus Minnesota 4d ago

The problem is that, right now, all of America believes that the Joe Biden we saw last night is an accurate reflection of how he is normally. If that's the case, we're in trouble.

Some people are saying that Biden has a cold or something. That might be (though it still doesn't reflect well on his cognitive function), but if that's true, Biden is going to prove it hard. He's going to need another extended public session showing how effective he really is. Otherwise, this debate is going to haunt him all the way up to the election.

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u/StainedBlue 4d ago

Ok, let's be real here. What we saw last night probably was an accurate reflection of how he is normally without a teleprompter. The real reason we're all voting for him – and let's face it – is because he's not Trump. That is itself a very good reason for democrats and left leaning voting, but it's not a good enough reason for undecided voters, else they wouldn't still be undecided. And with how close this election is, it is those undecided voters who will decide the election.

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u/USeaMoose 4d ago

I do wonder how much it is actually about undecided voters (ones who are actually unsure of if they should vote Trump or Biden), versus voter motivation (getting people to show up).

I have a hard time imagining that there really are millions out there that simply can't decide between Trump and Biden. Trump has worked hard to alienate anyone who is not a hardcore supporter of his. And the two are polar opposite on almost everything. If you think that the US is falling apart, and sending too much money to other countries while letting too many people into our country, then you vote Trump. If you are supportive of NATO and the US's involvement in global issues, as well as issues like reproductive rights, and various social issues, you vote Biden.

What topics do you have to care about where you are really undecided between the two? It's not like the past where each side would try to win over the other side's voters by avoiding taking too firm a stance on most things, especially controversial topics. Where each side had just a couple key topics that differentiated them, but otherwise they both ended up saying more or less the same thing.

My assumption is that it is mostly about motivation. If people of the left or the right start thinking that their party's choice for President is not so great, they much just not show up to vote. Maybe because they can't bring themselves to do it, or maybe because they assume it's a lost cause.

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u/OptionXIII 4d ago

The voter who is so principled that they are absolutely sure they are going to vote, but can't choose between these two candidates only exists on cable TV.

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u/Jake_373 3d ago

I'm going to vote but I'm not sure who I'm going to vote for yet. It exists but its definitely far from the majority of people.

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u/StainedBlue 4d ago

Voter turnout definitely matters, but it kinda buffers itself in competitive races, which this one, by some absurd tragedy, very much is.

It's like this. Party A's numbers suggest increased voter turnout for them. Party B's voters take notice of this, freaks out, and in turn, increase their own turnout. The end result is that there isn't too much difference. The only time this isn't the case is when a specific demographic has voter turnout that takes everyone by surprise. But due to how much this election has been spotlighted, I think such surprises would be harder to miss ahead of time

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u/gmishaolem 4d ago

I have a hard time imagining that there really are millions out there that simply can't decide between Trump and Biden.

They're not deciding between Trump and Biden: They're deciding between Biden and not voting. And no amount of "It's your civic duty!" or "This is the hand we've been dealt, so suck it up and do it anyway!" will change that.

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u/dBlock845 4d ago

I'm sure there are a good percentage of low information/undecided voters out there that aren't captured by these polling firms but I think that voter motivation is more important than capturing undecided voters. I feel as if most undecided voters usually don't vote and most likely won't vote in this election. In a vacuum (opponent isn't Trump), would you vote for someone that didn't look healthy and is trying to be president until he is 85? That is nearly five more years of aging and unless DARPA invents the Fountain of Youth imagine how he would look during the 2026 Midterms for example. We'll see what happens, if he isn't going to drop out he needs to have weekly press conferences to show the public that he can still hang.

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u/Ill_Page_7451 3d ago

think that the US is falling apart, and sending too much money to other countries while letting too many people into our country, then you vote Trump

I think this and am still begrudgingly voting blue because what Trump will do is still way worse, but fuck Biden and his refusal to step down

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u/Cayucos_RS 4d ago

It’s not good enough period. I’m angry at the democratic leadership to even have the audacity to let Biden run again. Trump will RUIN America and Biden will give him the keys to do it if he stays in this race

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u/essidus Minnesota 4d ago

And that's exactly the point. The Biden we saw last night wasn't an effective leader. Anyone left undecided after Trump's guilty verdict is going to have a hard time agreeing to Biden as president.

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u/dynamobb 4d ago

Not an effective public speaker but he seems to have led the country effectively over the last 3 years.

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u/StainedBlue 4d ago

His administration is, anyways, and that's what truly matters when it comes to governance and bureaucracy. The problem is that American presidential elections place large emphasis on individuals, and a sizable chunk of voters vote based on vibes, not the merits of administrations.

Which is to say, everything you said is factual and relevant, but somehow means very little in winning over undecided voters.

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u/Cicero912 Connecticut 4d ago

Obviously a bad comparison but Lenin was one of the best political operators in world history and he was not a good public speaker. Uncomfortable in crowds.

He was just really good in government/party meetings, and had great instincts. And he had other people (trotsky) who thrived in that setting

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u/NokKavow 3d ago

wasn't an effective leader

Indeed, but his opponent would be highly effective in undermining the system and leading us into a dictatorship.

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u/TheSavageDonut 4d ago

Are there any real undecided voters at this point?

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u/StainedBlue 4d ago

The giant swath of the population who don't really follow politics and don't have a candidate they feel good about voting for because they hate both somewhat equally

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u/TheSavageDonut 4d ago

The person you just described is someone who is not likely to vote at all.

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u/Skellum 4d ago

The real reason we're all voting for him

Is because his domestic and foreign policy have been fantastic and the US had benefited greatly and we cannot allow the GoP into power as they will literally murder people.

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u/StainedBlue 4d ago

That's his administration. Biden could be replaced by any younger Democrat with similar views, and we would have gotten similar policy decisions. Heck, they'd probably do better. There's a literal wealth of competent high-ranking Democrat governors with great track records who would do great and easily win the presidency if ran against trump. But because of an octogenarian's fucking stubbornness, we have to risk the very real possibility of losing the white house to the Republicans for 4 fucking years. And given the coat tail effect, his unpopularity will taint the legislative landscape and cost us seats there as well.

We definitely can't allow the GoP into power, and I'm definitely voting for Biden, but I'll never forgive him for his refusal to step down and pass the party torch. He'll be fucking 86 by the time his term finishes. He's had a good career, so just end it already while the decline is still beginning. It's the RBG and Feinstein fiascos all over again, and I'm furious that I'm going to be complicit in this.

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u/NokKavow 3d ago

because of an octogenarian's fucking stubbornness

Trump won in 2016 because Biden, then the VP, didn't want to run. He'll win in 2024 because Biden insists on running.

He'll be fucking 86 by the time his term finishes

Only if he's lucky. Male life expectancy in the US is 76.

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u/Rice_Daddy 3d ago

Not being Trump is an important reason for sure, but don't forget all the good stuff that's happened in America during his presidency, with the investments in Americans from infrastructure, to healthcare, and education.

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u/sir_mrej 3d ago

Undecideds are shit then. If they can’t see how bad trump is, we’re all ducked

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u/ThePurplePanzy 4d ago

I'm voting for him because he's the best president that I have had in my lifetime. He's delivered on way more of his promises and has been incredibly effective at turning the country around from an economic brink of disaster.

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u/CZ-Bitcoins 4d ago

"Ok, let's be real here. What we saw last night probably was an accurate reflection of how he is normally without a teleprompter. The real reason we're all voting for him – and let's face it – is because he's not Trump."

Seriously why aren't people getting this? We are throwing this to Trump rn.

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u/caulkglobs 3d ago

If they swap a moderate democrat in they can pull independents and moderate republicans who are holding their nose and voting for trump. If anyone in the DNC had any semblance of competence this is the easy play here.

But i think either they run biden despite his obvious health issues OR they do swap someone in but puck someone that people actively dislike like gretchen whitmer.

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u/38thTimesACharm 4d ago edited 3d ago

The real reason we're all voting for him – and let's face it -  is because he's not Trump

Do actual policies and governing not matter to anyone? We don't have to guess at what kind of president Biden would be, from snippets of rallies and speechs. He's already been doing the job for four years. 

I'm voting for Biden because he has run the government effectively and instituted policies that help people and protect our rights. Maybe he achieves that by delegating decisions to younger folks, I don't know. But as long as it works, it's not an issue.

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u/Rizzpooch I voted 4d ago

I'm voting for his administration, because, aside from not being staffed by literal fucking nazis, they've actually gotten a lot done that benefits the American people despite having a divided legislature and a batshit judiciary

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u/MrEHam 4d ago edited 4d ago

Yeah I agree. Here’s what I hope they’re considering:

  1. ⁠Run a bunch of ads that show Biden speaking clearly and forcefully to get that into everyone’s consciousness.

  2. ⁠Prep him for the next debate with a few key points to consistently hammer Trump on. Don’t worry about any stats or names that can trip up anyone regardless of age. Hardly anyone answers the questions perfectly anyways. He needs ZINGERS. And he needs to practice them daily until the next debate.

  3. Get Kamala some carefully crafted good exposure. Sticking up for Biden. Reassure people that she will step up if necessary.

Here’s what I hope everyone else is considering.

  1. ⁠Trump is a felon and he’s about to be sentenced.

  2. ⁠He tried to overthrow democracy and is unapologetic.

  3. ⁠Climate change is a serious threat that the republicans will accelerate if they win.

  4. ⁠The Supreme Court will be even more one-sided and we can say goodbye to abortions, birth control, gun control, and any protections for minority groups.

  5. ⁠I really hope we don’t have another pandemic because Trump screwed up the last one and everyone paid for it.

  6. ⁠Biden has four years of decades-high great results and had a great State of the Union address. He has an amazing team around him. That’s what matters. Get over a bad night where he stumbled on a dozen words.

Everyone should watch his fiery and well-spoken speech from today. It will make you feel a lot better about last night.

https://youtu.be/s5CVZHAjrW8?si=IDSZz7kgFHaTy_iq

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u/Gishra 4d ago

Here's another one: live town halls on the news networks between now and the next debate. If this really was just one bad night and is not representative of how he normally is, he needs to show that in a non-scripted environment.

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u/Clovis42 Kentucky 4d ago

Yeah, if Biden is staying as the nominee he needs to be in interviews and town halls all the time. He's bascially dodged the media for his whole presidency. If he can't appear sharp-minded in real interviews, they've gotta' replace him.

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u/sir_mrej 3d ago

He’s not getting replaced. These are our choices. Stop hoping politics is Burger King. You can’t have it your way.

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u/Clovis42 Kentucky 3d ago

Yeah, that's a good point. We should stop talking about politics in r/politics ...

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u/sir_mrej 3d ago

I said stop hoping politics is Burger King. This is a debate on a subreddit, and I'm telling you you're bad and wrong. This is where you tell me I'm an asshole.

I never told you to not talk about politics.

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u/Clovis42 Kentucky 3d ago

My point is that discussing things like this is the point of the sub. I obviously know that I can't get what I want out of politics by complaining on reddit. I don't think the DNC is here looking for tips from randos ...

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u/sir_mrej 2d ago

HEY DNC GET YOUR FUCKING HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS AND ACTUALLY RUN ADS THAT MAKE PEOPLE VOTE FOR BIDEN/HARRIS

I wish they did listen to us :(

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u/Cayucos_RS 4d ago

No. No no no. Biden had to go or we lose

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u/Gina_the_Alien 4d ago

I’m going to contend that #2 was the strategy going in. In order to keep Biden on topic, the strategists had Biden memorize key facts that he was supposed to get across - this is evidenced by Biden literally saying “number 1, number 2…” etc. during the debate.

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u/TheDude2600 4d ago

Biden has done that #1, #2 line after making a point and wanting to make another point for years and years.

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u/ThomasVivaldi 4d ago

That's probably an old technique he learned to manage his stutter.

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u/JollyRancher29 Virginia 3d ago

I hear my family do it all the time (and it’s passed to me), and afaik none of us have a stutter. I think it’s just an old white people thing lol

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u/gnulynnux 4d ago

Here's a different idea:

Replace Biden's skeleton and joints. Surely this is possible. Give him a body that's 90% that of a 25 year old athlete.

Then have him start regularly doing backflips at all his public appearances.

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u/sharp11flat13 Canada 4d ago

Everyone should watch his fiery and well-spoken speech from today. It will make you feel a lot better about last night. https://youtu.be/s5CVZHAjrW8?si=IDSZz7kgFHaTy_iq

This is the Joe Biden I expected to see last night. Please everyone, share and post this video everywhere.

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u/felinedancesyndrome 4d ago edited 4d ago

This Biden is def a little better. But the lighting on him in this speech is much better than the lighting that washed out the top half of his face during the debate. It made him look even more half dead.

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u/SpaceTimeinFlux 4d ago

The CNN lighting was fucking atrocious.

Just like most of the shit that CNN cobbles together.

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u/WoodPear 4d ago

It was the Biden team that demanded CNN (and ABC) host the debate though.

They should have said something if they were unsatisfied with the lighting.

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u/cryptogram 3d ago

Yea but that’s also a Joe Biden with a teleprompter,  not required to think on his own or on his feet, and with no pressure. 

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u/sharp11flat13 Canada 3d ago

True. But even recently I’ve seen him speak clearly and rationally on the issues extemporaneously and he was fine. In fact his answers reflected a cool head and years of experience in administrative affairs.

I’m not saying there’s nothing to be concerned about here, only that since last night is not the norm, how anomalous is it and how might things progress, if they do?

I also think this

But I’d still support a potted plant over Trump.

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u/Rifledcondor 4d ago

Oh you mean when he was using a teleprompter and didn’t have to think about what he was saying?

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u/TheDude2600 4d ago

(Gets teleprompter back) (Still mumbles and stutters)

Ah yes guys I feel so much better!

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u/automaticfiend1 4d ago

If there's anything to hit Biden on the stutter we've all known he's had for 80 years isn't it.

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u/TheDude2600 4d ago

You're right.

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u/bonerdrag 4d ago

It’s evidence that he’s maybe not seconds away from death which to me is pretty reassuring 

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u/DonkeyPunchCletus 4d ago

Reassure people that she will step up if necessary.

Have Kamala go around and tell everyone she is ready to go if she is needed? You think that's a good strategy?

I hope the Biden team isn't reading reddit lol

Doesn't Trump have his felony sentencing coming up? And various other legal problems? Everyone is panicking about Biden but it's actually Trump that's caught in a shitstorm right now.

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u/MrEHam 4d ago

Not directly say it but at least show that she’s there and capable.

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u/felinedancesyndrome 4d ago

She can’t directly say it though. That would be suicide for their campaign.

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u/Think_Discipline_90 4d ago

Honestly I wish they would just double down on the age instead of trying to hide it. He’s old as fuck, but does the job well still, and we know that because shit gets done.

So what if he’s slow, who cares lol

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u/Plunderberg 4d ago

And if he can't do that in the next (last) debate he is absolutely cooked.

Wr need a new candidate who we don't need to reinvent the wheel for, with a chance to win greather than 27 percent. If Trump is the antichrist we're being told he is? They need to start acting like it.

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u/Skellum 4d ago

Wr need a new candidate

Could you and others stop saying something this nonsense? You dont get a new candidate. Every interest group has locked in, every voter knows who they're voting for if theyre comitted. There is literally zero fucking time to change this and changing this now with no primary means no stakeholder buy in.

Biden could take his dick out and begin masturbating on TV and he will still be the candidate. Focus on real things that can be done.

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u/paultheschmoop 4d ago

You don’t get a new candidate

You’re right, and this is the biggest problem. Biden should never have been the candidate in the first place, and voters didn’t have the choice to pick a better candidate. And now we’re risking losing the most important election of our lifetime because the DNC fumbled what should’ve been the easiest layup in election history. Infuriating.

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u/Skellum 4d ago

Voters didn't have a choice

Voters could have chosen from any of the available candidates back in 2019/2020. They chose, to a significant margin, Biden. I dont think people get that every time they do this "omg biden was chosen for us!" thing it's basically an attempt to disenfranchise every voter who did support him.

If your argument is "I wish we had people more representative of me" then yes, that's a reasonable wish. I understand it. I dont know you, so I dont necessarily agree with you, but I understand it and it's more valid than "we just yoink people's choices from them and appoint someone!"

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u/paultheschmoop 4d ago

Biden was chosen by the voters after the DNC put the order out for all of the centrist candidates to fall in line. He was, in fact, not being chosen by a significant margin before that happened, where Biden was selected as the “unity” candidate.

Regardless, I wasn’t even talking about 2020. I was talking about 2024, where the voters indeed did not have the choice of another candidate. Biden should not have been a candidate in 2024, as he is too old. He should’ve stepped aside to give voters the choice between coherent candidates, but chose not to. Now we are paying the price.

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u/Plunderberg 4d ago

There is nothing to do so long as Biden is the candidate. He's cooked. It's that simple.

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u/Skellum 4d ago

Were you planning on Voting for him in 2024?

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u/Jorge_Santos69 4d ago

Don’t bother, dude can’t even vote lol

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u/Skellum 4d ago

Like, While I think the debate was a stupid fucking idea no matter what happened it just solidified my position for me in general. Biden is still old. Ok. Trump is still a lying rapist who'd fuck our entire nation and the world.

Biden is still delivering great policy and progress. Trump literally wants to kill people. Just.. dont fucking give Trump more attention jeeze.

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u/Plunderberg 4d ago

Yes? You should be convincing any of the people who aren't instead of arguing with me, but that's not why you're here so whatever.

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u/huskersax 4d ago

Get Kamala some carefully crafted good exposure. Sticking up for Biden. Reassure people that she will step up if necessary.

Naw, they need to keep her on MSNBC otherwise her presence just reminds people that she's statistically likely to be president at some point in the next term.

But it is still June. The question isn't whether Biden will rebound from this, he will, but whether it was a one-off bad showing or whether it's more consistent with what will come down the road.

And by bad showing, I don't mean the 'debate' as it's a complete denigration of the station of the office of the president to even equate that shitshow to something having decorum or utility - but rather will he continue to seem absolutely old as shit?

My guess is the cold thing is true and he'll be better - but he does have a very established 'old person walk' at this point and his voice is weaker generally.

His appearance on Seth Meyers where they favorably edit all of their guests had the same underlying issues, just not as exaggerated.

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u/testrail 4d ago

Yes but all the Trump campaign has to do is just air footage from last night with the same amount of ads.

Don’t agree to another debate, and just keep the message that putting such a weak senile man on show for the world again is literally a security risk for the country until January 2025.

Let Harris put her foot in her mouth. We’ve watched this repeatedly.

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u/mostuselessredditor 4d ago

He prepped for a week. It’s over.

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u/Mr_peanut_butterrr 4d ago

I hope he steps aside, that’s what we as a party need to be calling for.

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u/MrEHam 4d ago

Watch the speech from today. He’s clearly sharp and it was just a bad night.

Everyone loses their train of thought sometimes.

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u/Mr_peanut_butterrr 4d ago

“Speech”. Exactly. “Everyone loses their train of thought”. Read the transcripts of those answers. It wasn’t once or twice.

Y’all delusional in your tribalism and we’re veering towards disaster because of it. He lost the soft 5% last night for good. Somebody needs to speak truth. Contested convention should be what we’re universally calling for.

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u/Parahelix 4d ago

Dems don't have anyone else that could start a campaign at this point, except possibly Harris, and that would just cause a whole different set of problems.

You'd have a massive amount of scrutiny, which could screw up any new campaign, but which isn't really an issue for Biden since he's been scrutinized to hell and back already.

As I've said before, Biden could die a month after his inauguration and I wouldn't worry too much, because he will appoint competent people and things will continue to function just fine.

Trump is a criminal, who appoints the worst people (often also criminals), and then ends up telling us that they're the worst people as he fires them via tweet. He also lies about what he's going to do, and has the absolute dumbest policy ideas imaginable.

Why anyone would vote for that over even a comatose Biden, I can't fathom.

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u/Mr_peanut_butterrr 4d ago

They don’t? It’s June, not October. Convention hasn’t happened, plenty of time for a horse race. Is it ideal? Obviously it isn’t, but staying course ends in defeat.

The political reality is we’re deeply entrenched. 40-45% of the electorate won’t vote for either regardless of what they do. Personally, I’d crawl over broken glass to vote against Trump. However, we need to target that last 5-10% that remains soft. Their biggest complaint is “he’s too old, weak, etc”. Last night laid bare all their worst fears and they won’t soon forget. It was a disaster, and any talking head who tells you otherwise is being at best desingenous, and at worst purposefully deceitful.

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u/honkoku 4d ago

They don’t? It’s June, not October. Convention hasn’t happened, plenty of time for a horse race. Is it ideal? Obviously it isn’t, but staying course ends in defeat.

The main problem is that right now, there is no obvious single person that can step up and replace Biden. If Biden were to decide to step aside, we would be back to the progressive vs. moderate fight again with 12 different candidates trying to elbow their way in. That's not a good position to be in 5 months before the election and even less time before the convention.

If Kamala Harris were widely respected and thought of as a future president she could take over, but (perhaps due to sexism and racism) she isn't viewed that way, meaning there's no clear successor.

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u/Mr_peanut_butterrr 4d ago

The obvious choice is literally anybody else. Whitmer, Newsom, Warnock, etc. let them fight it out, but Biden is toast with the sliver of the electorate he needs to win this election and doing nothing is political malpractice.

Not a good position to be in? Give me a break. You act like we’re in a good position now. Trump about to open up a 5-10% lead in the polls, our candidate is incoherent, good god we have to try something.

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u/honkoku 4d ago

You are overestimating the effect Biden's bad performance will have on the election, and underestimating the chaos it would cause to try to replace him now.

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u/taco_guy_for_hire 4d ago

Yeah, unfortunately it is clear that Biden is too old for the job. I like Biden but it was sad seeing him up there. He cannot do the job, and his administration cannot do the job of a president without a president. And this is 2024…what does he look like 2-3 years from now? Another presidency could possible kill him. The man needs to retire, and if the DNC can’t rally behind another candidate, then it’ll be their own fault when they loose in November…because that’s exactly where we are going with Biden. I’m sorry, it sucks, but it’s true. It’s not all right to just have a president up there who can’t speak in a straight line for more than 10 seconds at a time. I can’t believe I’m not seeing more comments like this.

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u/MrEHam 4d ago

This was one of the earliest debates ever. There’s still almost five months and Trump is about to be sentenced for his felony.

The speech from today shows that he’s still sharp. I’m not that worried tbh. Especially after seeing the speech.

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u/Mr_peanut_butterrr 4d ago

Have fun in your delusion, wish I could be as ignorant of political realities.

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u/MrEHam 4d ago

Watch the speech.

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u/Mr_peanut_butterrr 4d ago

I did. It’s a speech, that’s my point. You keep saying that and it’s self-defeating.

Until Biden has a long, unscripted public appearance where there’s unknown variables and he’s coherent, I will remain apocalyptic. He lost the soft 5-10% who’s biggest concern was laid bare for all to see.

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u/MrEHam 4d ago

Lose it to Trump? Not that easy. He’s a felon, responsible for Jan 6, bungled covid, already lost to Biden, found liable for sexual assault, etc.

But oh no, Biden lost his train of thought last night!

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u/LackEmbarrassed1648 4d ago

Eh, trump didn’t make any sense, he just was louder about it. Which is kinda easier to do if you don’t have to be fact checked or even answer the question. So even when trump says something nonsense or off topic, it seems more normal.

As long as Biden knows what is happening around him, he doesn’t have to say another word for me to vote for him.

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u/Ok_Abrocoma_2805 4d ago

Yeah and the people brushing it off as “it’s just a cold” are huffing copium. They need to read a transcript of some of what Biden said last night. A lot of it was literally nonsensical. Biden looked confused, tired, and scared. Having a sore throat doesn’t cause all that.

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u/TheIllestDM 4d ago

He literally said he "defeated medicare".

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u/BuckeyeForLife95 4d ago

He took the most slam dunk issue he has on Trump, abortion rights, pivoted it to immigration, and gave an anecdote that reinforces Trump's opinion that illegal immigrants are all violent criminals.

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u/justinlindh Montana 4d ago

This was the point that I lost it and started screaming at my TV.

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u/ExcellentLaw2066 4d ago

Yeah it’s kinda weird how folks are trying to change the narrative (“the debates don’t matter!”) after the world saw how incoherent and confused Biden was last night.

Look, I don’t want trump to win at all, he’s a threat to the country but ignoring Bidens declining cognitive functions…it’s reminiscent of Hillary’s camp ignoring advice in 2016. 

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u/TheMalarkeyTour90 4d ago

There's been a really weird shift in the last ten years. Pre-2016, campaigns were desperate to get all the negative feedback they could, as early as they could. It was essentially treated like a stress test. Find out your vulnerabilities, be honest with yourself about them, and work your ass off to address them.

Since 2016, campaigns seem to have been far more focussed on coddling their candidates, burying their heads in the sand, deflecting, and whatabouting perceived weaknesses. And that's not just a left or right thing. It's across the political spectrum.

I'm not sure if it's an effect of social media generations entering the political consultancy sphere. But it seems like nowadays unquestioning loyalty to The Team has become more valued than calling hard truths, or the sort of difficult self-reflection that used to allow campaigns to adapt, overcome their weaknesses, and win.

Polling is such an instructive example of that. A decade ago, campaigns were desperate to get their hands on negative polling. They'd pore through it endlessly - almost neurotically - to try and plug perceived gaps and deficiencies.

Nowadays, if a campaign gets wind of unfavourable polling, it's more likely than not to dismiss it out of hand as its favoured form of Bottery and Mischief.

I cannot overstate how counterproductive this approach is for those who actually want to win, rather than just feel good about themselves.

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u/ExcellentLaw2066 4d ago

Everything you said is spot on and a reality of the current political landscape. 

I’m not sure the dems realize all of trumps gaps and deficiencies don’t harm him as bad as the gaps and deficiencies would harm Biden. Trump literally said certain jobs were for Black and Hispanic but I doubt he’ll lose a many voters from it (along with being a felon).

Biden however will lose votes on his performance after last night. Plugging our ears does not make us win, it simply pikachu-faces us like 2016.

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u/sir_mrej 3d ago

Republicans vote in lock step. That’s why he’s not hurt by it. Democrats need to as well.

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u/_kraftdinner 3d ago

I think a lot of it has to do with 2016. We watched as a competent person win the popular vote but then still lose to a madman. I’m not saying Hillary is perfect, but I think Trump winning was the most terrifying election result in my lifetime. I happen to be a history nerd who was raised by an addict with a personality disorder….so Trump terrified me from very early on.

If the only other option wasn’t totally insane and trying to be a dictator, people would probably be way more chill about Biden’s age/mannerisms last night. We are feeling the pressure to be perfect because most Americans know that Trump supporters can’t be persuaded, aren’t logical, and will show up to vote. I guess long story short, we have ptsd at the societal level. Anyway, wouldn’t it be nice if things got better for once? 😂

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u/Gishra 4d ago

And a glorious victory for America it was!

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u/dltegme 3d ago

No he literally said he beat medicare. Why use the quotes for your paraphrase

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u/TheIllestDM 1d ago

OHHHH jeez sorry defeated and beat so different. It was right afterwards.

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u/seasiren_666 4d ago

to be fair, sicknesses actually do affect the elderly much different. a simple UTI can cause delirium.

(not at all saying this is what happened, but they are super old so things will affect them differently)

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u/Ok_Abrocoma_2805 4d ago

You’re definitely correct. But that’s not reassuring to voters, that their president is so old and feeble that we have to worry about his physical and mental stamina if he gets a common cold or a UTI, something a non-elderly person could get through no problem. I say this as someone who will vote for Biden but it’s not inspiring confidence.

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u/Seamus-Archer 4d ago

If there’s a second debate it could be game changing. If Biden comes out just as flat it confirms suspicions that he’s old and feeble, if he comes out swinging and coherent then it’s easier to brush off the first debate as being sick or whatever. The undecided voters need confirmation that Biden is the guy or they may sit the election out and hand it to Trump.

A single bad debate performance isn’t the end of a campaign but Biden can’t have this be his only showing between now and Election Day, he has to convince people last night was the exception and not the norm.

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u/seasiren_666 4d ago

I absolutely agree. Biden is in his 80s and Trump isn't far behind. Trump is just as susceptible to UTI induced delirium as Joe. we need young people in office.

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u/Ok_Abrocoma_2805 4d ago

Yes please! Can we get someone younger than late 70s? It shouldn’t be such a big ask! Imagine a younger, confident-speaking Democrat to contrast to fat old rambling Trump who most people hate anyway? Dems wouldn’t even have to worry. What a sad state of our country.

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u/Cayucos_RS 4d ago

I agree, but I don’t want to wait through another 4 years of a Trump train wreck to get that. Biden will lose this election if he runs. He is not cut out for the job and we need better, now.

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u/fcocyclone Iowa 4d ago

Yep. The presidency isn't a job where you can be great on your great days and bad on your bad days.

You have to be on the ball 24/7, ready for that 3am call where suddenly you're headed to the situation room to deal with a crisis.

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u/no_one_lies 4d ago

Saying sickness affects the elderly differently does not help him beat the old and feeble allegations

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u/seasiren_666 4d ago

it wasn't supposed to. it's just the truth. both Biden and Trump are susceptible to illness induced delirium and confusion because they are old.

0

u/WorkWorking4477 4d ago

True but do we also want someone so old that a simple health hiccup causes this stuff? Dude should be spending his remaining years with his family.

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u/seasiren_666 4d ago

100% agree. get the elderly out of office. why are we voting between two people that a simple UTI could take down?

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u/Randomfactoid42 Virginia 4d ago

When I have a cold I have problems concentrating. And everything Trump said was nonsensical, Biden was actually staying in touch with reality. He was obviously having trouble keeping up with Trump’s nonsense. So did a lot of people watching. 

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u/Businesspleasure 4d ago

I’m 33 and if I had a cold I would have been spouting nonsense too, and looked like shit

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u/born_tolove1 4d ago

Interesting how his rally today was very very good

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u/MrEHam 4d ago

Link?

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u/born_tolove1 4d ago

https://youtu.be/s5CVZHAjrW8?si=IDSZz7kgFHaTy_iq

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u/Pipe_Memes 4d ago

Damn. Where was that dude last night?

Hopefully it was just a bad night, but what a night to have a bad night.

I don’t know if the cold thing is just a desperate spin or not, but his voice was awful last night, and appears much better in this video.

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u/Haltopen Massachusetts 4d ago

His performance probably would have been a lot better if they hadn't held the debate at 9pm in the evening. He was probably running on empty after being up for over 12 hours.

2

u/a_statistician Nebraska 4d ago

He was probably running on empty after being up for over 12 hours.

Presidents generally don't get much sleep, and we don't know what else he dealt with yesterday that isn't public news. He's leading the country, he can't necessarily ensure a good night's sleep the night before the debate.

7

u/ChunkMcDangles 4d ago

But that's part of the problem, is it not? Every president in the modern era had this same set of expectations placed on them and only one of them frequently struggles to form coherent sentences. You can't say it's mainly because of the job.

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u/owl_theory 4d ago

What the hell, this is actually night and day

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u/MrEHam 4d ago

Wow, this definitely makes me feel better about last night. This should be shared everywhere. This is like the State of the Union address.

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u/foreverNever22 4d ago

Difference is a teleprompter + focus group'd speech...

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u/Rizzpooch I voted 4d ago

yeah, because Presidents never get time to prepare for important speeches...

He's got good people around him, and if you listen to what he said you can see that he actually knows how to do the job. I'd trust him in a crisis to do a good job so long as the crisis isn't debating an improv-trained feces-throwing chimp like he was last night. We don't need someone who can speak well off-the-cuff; it would be nice, but what we need is a competent commander in chief. People never got clips of James Madison on Tik Tok, but he was a good president. I'd be content for Biden to spend the next four years addressing the nation only at the State of the Union so long as he kept working on a popular and beneficial policy agenda

1

u/foreverNever22 3d ago

someone who can speak well off-the-cuff; it would be nice, but what we need is a competent commander in chief.

I say that is backwards, a competent commander in chief can speak well off the cuff. And if there's a feces throwing buffoon he should be able to handle him, shit half the other democrats could.

1

u/a_statistician Nebraska 4d ago

Well, that at least indicates that he has a functional staff?

1

u/Antique_Cricket_4087 3d ago

I guess the glass is 1/4 full!

1

u/foreverNever22 3d ago

No because a functional staff wouldn't let an 81 year old run for another four year term. I don't want to vote for Biden because I feel bad.

It would be like sending my elderly grandpa back to work. He's just like my dying grandpa in so many ways.

1

u/Shock_n_Oranges 4d ago

Reading from a teleprompter takes a lot of cognitive load off so you can focus on physical expression.

1

u/MrEHam 4d ago

I don’t think he did as bad as the hot takes seem. He lost his train of thought twice. Everyone does that. Then there was like a dozen stumbles on words. Not great but not cataclysmic.

Then there were his usually stutters. I think he made some good points and got in some zingers. I especially liked him hammering that Trump was rated dead last by presidential historians.

Also calling him a loser, a whiner, and having the morals of an alley cat.

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u/Jerrys_Puffy_Shirt 4d ago

That’s what adderall and a teleprompter will do for you

0

u/thosewhocannetworkd 4d ago

He had a teleprompter or probably an ear bud with someone feeding him words.

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u/ErikFuhr Canada 4d ago edited 4d ago

Anyone who has had a loved one suffer from dementia or Alzheimer’s knows that there are good days and there are bad days. It honestly doesn’t surprise me if he was totally baffled and confused last night and then seemingly fine today. My grandpa was like that for years until the bad days steadily outnumbered the good days and then there were just no more good days. It’s sad, but for the good of the country and the sake of our democracy Joe needs to step aside for a younger and healthier candidate.

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u/Cranb4rry 4d ago

Biden didn’t fucking have Alzheimer’s yesterday. His facts were there and he did quite a lot of impressive things memory wise. Biden stood there like a student having lernt way to much for a 10 minute test and then struggling getting the important stuff across in a minute and than panicking every time his time is up

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u/mostuselessredditor 4d ago

Man has been in politics longer than I’ve been alive and we’re going with “he panicked”?

0

u/ErikFuhr Canada 4d ago

The thing is, “a student having lernt way to much for a 10 minute test and then struggling getting the important stuff across in a minute and than panicking every time his time is up” is also someone who definitely should not be president. We need an A+ student to lead the nation and the world through the multiple crises we are facing, not the kid who constantly makes up excuses for his failing grades.

1

u/builttopostthis6 4d ago

Luckily the President has an administration that assists with the running of the country, working in tandem with a pair of elected bodies and an appointed judiciary and a whole buttload of unelected public servants. It's kind of like a game of Civilization, but ya know, not like that at all.

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u/ohno11 4d ago

That’s not how the job works FFS. Stop defending what we all saw 

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u/blueclawsoftware 4d ago

He was fine literally minutes later when he addressed the watch party. And anyone who has had a love one suffer from dementia knows that's not what it looks like.

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u/ErikFuhr Canada 4d ago

Moments of senility followed by moments of lucidity? Yes, that is absolutely what dementia looks like and it’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

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u/ChunkMcDangles 4d ago

That's exactly how both of my grandparents with dementia acted when I helped take care of them...

1

u/born_tolove1 4d ago

He won’t do that. The incumbent advantage + his ego.

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u/ErikFuhr Canada 4d ago

His ego is leading the country towards catastrophe. Obama, the Clintons, Schumer, Pelosi all need to sit down with Joe and explain this to him. Everyone in the party, down to the rank and file members, needs to put pressure on him to step aside now. If you genuinely believe that democracy is on the ballot this election, and it absolutely is, then we need someone stronger and healthier than a senile old man leading the fight.

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u/Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrpp 4d ago

No one can overcome the incumbent advantage + spin up a competent campaign to get a better result than Biden. It would be impossible at this point. Campaigns don’t grow on trees. It’s Biden or bust. 

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u/builttopostthis6 4d ago

This is absolutely true. Whatever may come of the debate, spooling up another campaign is one of those silly Redditor talking points that will no doubt be going until November 5th, and maybe beyond. It's Biden or bust, most certainly, just like it was yesterday. And it's wishful thinking to assume otherwise, and seeing people talking about a brokered convention legit made me laugh. There hasn't been a brokered convention in longer than most Americans have been alive.

If I'm somehow wrong about that, well I guess I'm wrong. But it'd certainly come as a surprise.

2

u/ErikFuhr Canada 4d ago

Do you even read newspapers? This isn’t some silly Redditor talking point. There’s editorials in every newspaper calling for Biden to step aside. The New York Times, The Washington Post, the Atlantic, the list goes on and on… Biden has completely lost the mainstream media.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/28/opinion/biden-election-debate-trump.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/06/biden-trump-debate-election/678835/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/06/28/david-ignatius-biden-trump-debate-age/

And that’s just a small sample of the editorials calling for him to stand aside.

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u/TheSavageDonut 4d ago

Democracy is on the ballot because of what Trump will do if we re-elect him not because of what Biden will do if we re-elect him.

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u/ReddittorMan 4d ago

That is what Biden is like without a teleprompter.

It is an accurate representation of how he communicates.

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u/darito0123 4d ago

It was biden on a week's rest and the most expensive prep money can buy, they built a replica stage and everything if reports are true

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u/MoodAlternative2118 4d ago

Exactly, this was supposed to be the best Biden could possibly look and what we got was terrible.

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u/bytethesquirrel New Hampshire 4d ago

It was biden on a week's rest

And getting a cold right before the big night.

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u/WretchedHog 4d ago

That is a pathetic excuse

3

u/mostuselessredditor 4d ago

And then going to Waffle House?

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u/darito0123 4d ago

A cold doesn't explain almost all of what we saw

4

u/craftymethod 4d ago

Its like he kept stopping himself from coughing and 3/4 of his vocal chords checked out of the building.

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u/bytethesquirrel New Hampshire 4d ago

https://youtu.be/HYghfyxtZnc?t=601

Looks like he's recovered.

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u/darito0123 4d ago

I think it's the difference between a teleprompter vs on your toes debate but I hope I am wrong

1

u/fcocyclone Iowa 4d ago

The thing is, he was fine with the 'on your toes' stuff.

He honestly looked worst when he was trying to do the prepared stuff. Like he'd kind of hit his stride in the second half of the debate, but then the closing statements came and he was back to getting bogged down in details.

0

u/bytethesquirrel New Hampshire 4d ago

if hes incapable of holding a train of thought, he can't follow a teleprompter.

3

u/Cuchullion 4d ago

Case in point: Trump, who goes "off prompt" to ramble all the time.

5

u/sideAccount42 California 4d ago

A cold after a week of isolation and then recovery in a day? Has he just had a ton of micro colds these last few years as well?

2

u/fcocyclone Iowa 4d ago

Colds happen. They hit the elderly harder.

This is one of many reasons why there should be a maximum age on this job.

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u/SHlT-MY-PANTS 4d ago

He felt well enough to go out to a waffle house after and meet with people. If youre truly sick you're not doing that.

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u/theumph 4d ago

He's doesn't have the ability to dig himself out of this. In 2012 Obama had an awful initial debate. Democrat pundits were very critical of him. He appeared disconnected and aloof. He followed that up with a fantastic performance. An 82 year old is not capable of putting on a performance to assuage the concerns from last night.

0

u/BambooDiamondCannon 4d ago

He did today.

https://youtu.be/s5CVZHAjrW8?si=IDSZz7kgFHaTy_iq

3

u/theumph 4d ago

It's not good enough. Debates are a test of pressure. A rally being supported by cheerleaders does not equate. It's wild to me that people accept or embrace an 82 year old presidential candidate. I liked Biden as VP, but it's way past his time to be in public service

1

u/BambooDiamondCannon 4d ago

What would be good enough, in your view?

2

u/theumph 4d ago

The democrats need to find a candidate that voters can have a connection with. Historically they have been very good at that. At this stage Biden is not a big enough draw to bring in independents, and more crucially the young voters. Biden should have announced he wasn't running after the mid terms to allow the party to cultivate candidates. Instead we got a bastardized primary and no real choice. People have questioned Bidens condition for years, and not just right wingers. It's a concern that the party disregarded and nothing will drive voters away like disregarding their concerns. If Biden runs Trump will win.

1

u/BambooDiamondCannon 4d ago

So no matter how well he does, it won’t matter to you?

2

u/kaimason1 Arizona 4d ago

It is possible to screw up enough that you can't make up for it.

If it comes down to it, I'm still voting Biden, but my vote wasn't going to be the deciding factor. The general public just saw a performance that validated the GOP's claims about Biden, and polling was already scary close before the debate.

The convention hasn't occurred yet, Biden's name isn't already set in stone on any state's ballots. There is still time to pivot... but if we wait to see if a) Trump will agree to a second debate, b) Biden clutches out some miracle performance, and c) the public is actually tuned in and cares enough to make up for the first debate, it will be far too late to change course and veer away from the impending cliff of a second Trump presidency and Project 2025.

Even if everything does work out in the end, why wouldn't we want to run a younger and more exciting candidate who doesn't have to recover from this in the first place? The incumbency advantage is completely gone now.

1

u/theumph 3d ago

Unless he can reverse aging, no. If I was hiring for a business and he walked through the door I would not hire him. He's just no longer capable IMO.

2

u/gottago_gottago 4d ago

This drives me nuts because we aren't supposed to be electing leaders for their ability to argue in public -- we ought to be electing them on the basis of their ability to manage an effective administration for the country.

By that measure, Biden's administration has been fantastic overall. His administration has deftly negotiated multiple very complex foreign affairs issues and a whole pile of domestic issues that have deeply divided the country. Nobody has gotten everything they've wanted, but his administration has so far been better than Obama's. Democrats ought to be yelling that from the rooftops.

Trump's administration was inarguably terrible. I mean, the guy is at least partly responsible for giving the whole world COVID. He enriched himself and his family and friends at the expense of the country and stole national secrets and likely traded them away to foreign intelligence. He's both a criminal and a lousy administrator.

And yet here we are talking about their relative performances in a debate. This is political theater, but unfortunately it's political theater that changes the way people feel about the candidates.

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u/fcocyclone Iowa 4d ago

Yep. We can talk about prior bad debate performances not mattering, but Fetterman held a polling lead through almost all of the 2022 cycle. Obama held a lead through almost the entire 2012 cycle, so while he took a hit from the bad debate, things reverted back to the norm by election day.

The difference right now is that Biden has been trailing. He needed something to flip the script, to reassure people he is capable of handling this for another 4 years. Instead, he largely confirmed those fears, meaning its going to be that much harder. And keep in mind he doesn't need to just win the popular vote, he needs to win by a few points nationally to have a chance of winning the electoral college.

It scares the shit out of me that he isn't going to get another chance to flip this until september, and at that point it'll be way too late to do anything about it. That's why you have people openly discussing whether a change should be made. That would itself be a big gamble, but people are questioning which one is the bigger risk right now, and sad to say, sticking with Biden might be the bigger risk.

3

u/nebulaphi 4d ago

The problem is that, right now, all of America believes that the Joe Biden we saw last night is an accurate reflection of how he is normally.

I meaaan isn't it....it pretty much confirmed all the fears from dems and stuff Republicans say about him and everyone is coming to that realization that it's not just a Republican talking point anymore. Dudes got some cognitive issues. I mean, he literally has brain damage.

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u/Charming-Rock-9 4d ago

Exactly. Why does the DNC think we can't put two and two together? Biden is of an age where it's concerning whether he can be responsible running the most powerful country in the world.

Call me paranoid but this is all starting to seem like an intentional botching of the presidential race. Hand it to Trump so we can get our long awaited fascist oligarchy. Corporations win. Surprise, Surprise.

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u/AdmiralSaturyn 4d ago

The problem is that, right now, all of America believes that the Joe Biden we saw last night is an accurate reflection of how he is normally.

People already perceived Biden as senile in the 2020 election and he still won.

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u/no_one_lies 4d ago

There’s a difference between Fox news touting it and seeing it for yourself on CNN

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u/AdmiralSaturyn 4d ago

People already saw it on CNN back in 2020. Don't tell me that you've already forgotten about Biden's senile gaffe's back in his 2020 campaign rallies and debates.

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u/no_one_lies 4d ago

2020 was an entirely different Biden

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u/AdmiralSaturyn 4d ago

Was it? People at the time already suspected that Biden had dementia. There was even a viral article (which immediately got deleted) back in 2020 that pondered the question of whether or not it mattered if the president had dementia.

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u/Mr_peanut_butterrr 4d ago

What we saw last night was not the Biden of 2020. I watched both, I’m not that old or a toddler. The left is gaslighting us into disaster

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u/thegoatmenace 4d ago

I legit feel like I’m the crazy one, because I’ve defended Biden all this time. Last night freaked me out. He looked and sounded like he was actively sinking into the grave. Can you blame Americans for thinking of him that way when that’s how he presents himself on the biggest stage he’s had this entire election?

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u/D3vils_Adv0cate 4d ago

I think the reality is who we saw is how Biden actually is. We can't keep making excuses for it or it will bite us all in the ass

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u/Visual-Juggernaut-61 4d ago

What scares me is that this was supposed to be Biden at his best. Cold aside, he had weeks to prepare and the best prep team and debate scenarios he could have asked for. He should have came in swinging. If this is him at his “best” I’m scared to think of how he is outside of the debate.

1

u/TheDude2600 4d ago

"Showing how effective he really is?"

You serious?

1

u/a_statistician Nebraska 4d ago

That might be (though it still doesn't reflect well on his cognitive function)

I mean, I'm a pretty smart person with a PhD, and when I have a cold I lose any rhetorical ability because my head is full and my throat hurts and ... it doesn't make me an idiot, but I'm certainly not going to perform at my best in most areas, and my communication skills take a particularly large hit.

1

u/Jerrys_Puffy_Shirt 4d ago

It is an accurate reflection of how he is normally.

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u/CHESTYUSMC 3d ago

I’ve regularly watched Joe’s speeches the last four years. It was pretty on par tbh… A friend of mine showed me the a conservative show has a whole segment called,”This week in Biden.” Where they take an unedited section of his speech from that week, just to laugh…

1

u/EasternDelight 3d ago

Based on his speech today he got over that “cold” pretty quick!

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u/SuperSecretSide 4d ago

But this is what Biden is like normally. Before he was even elected, people on both sides have been saying that he is an elderly man with declining cognitive functions. This was THE public forum to show people how ready Biden is to be re-elected, his PR team prepped him for weeks ahead of this, his diet, his sleep schedule, his medication, his engagements, everything. Tens of millions of USD from donors were counting on this debate, you can ensure that every stakeholder possible tried to ensure he would be at his best at this debate. This is the best he can be in an unfiltered situation. He is COOKED.

2

u/Thief_of_Sanity 4d ago

And there likely won't be another debate. Trump said he barely wanted to be at this one.

1

u/TheonlyRhymenocerous 4d ago

Having a cold doesn’t make someone a stumbling buffoon, it makes them wipe their nose and cough more

0

u/LilPonyBoy69 4d ago

Honestly this was painful enough that I don't think people will be clamoring to watch another extended public session. He blew his shot on making an impression, this can't be undone with a dozen more debates

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