r/Invincible • u/RevolutionaryGrape11 • Dec 16 '23
Do you think the Guardians Of The Globe could have won if Red Rush had stuck to just bailing the others out of death and hadn't attacked himself, or do you think everyone was doomed no matter what? They did put up a great fight even after he was removed, so I think it's plausible they could have. DISCUSSION
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u/dravenonred Dec 16 '23
The fact that Nolan even bothered setting up an ambush, which is very uncommon for him, absolutely implies that there is a combination of actions the Guardians could have won with.
The surprise was to deny them the ability to coordinate that.
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u/Kinggakman Dec 16 '23
He also needed to do it in secret and wanted to do it all at once. The ambush came more out of necessity rather than him doing it intentionally.
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u/Infinite_Waves1 Dec 16 '23
In addition, Nolan was enjoying his time on Earth and wanted it to stay the same for as long as possible. It was when Mark got his powers that he realised he needed to start doing the taking over part of his job.
I think if he didn't care about maintaining his human life he would have just gone full direct war and won with ease as he did in the other universes.
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u/ECGeorge Dec 16 '23
This always confused me—why does mark getting his powers convince omniman that it’s finally time to kill the guardians?
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u/SWaitingInTheSky Dec 16 '23
The comics explain a little bit better.
Nolan was given 500 years to take over Earth.
If Mark didn't end up getting powers, Omni man would wait for Mark and Debbie to die of old age. Only after that he would resume his mission. Pretty solid plan.
But Mark getting his powers ensured that he would still be there in 500 years. So there was no point in waiting to take over. More than that, I think that Omni man knew that Mark and him would only get more attached to Earth, so he probably decided that it was time to take actions before it was too late.
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u/BirthdayNegative7595 Dec 16 '23
That makes more sense. Also factor in the fact that Mark would get better and stronger every year, so the earlier Nolan took action the more likely he succeeds
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u/Awoawesome Dec 16 '23
The more likely he succeeds and the more likely he can indoctrinate and convert Mark to the viltrumite side
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u/OOOOOO0OOOOO Dec 17 '23
I think the opposite is true. If Nolan had waited 300 years it would have given Mark enough distance from the past, and restarts, that he would see Nolan’s point about humans.
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u/Lucifeces Dec 17 '23
I agree with you here. Like let mom and everyone else he’s attached to pass all while taking up how great viltrumkte is and how they need to start focusing on the mission etc….
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u/OOOOOO0OOOOO Dec 17 '23
Exactly, Omni-man just got impatient.
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u/JerevStormchaser Dec 17 '23
If we've learned anything it's that Viltrumites are not famous for their patience.
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u/ChristianRecon Dec 17 '23
That’s a good point, but you also have to worry how strong a 300 year old Mark would be. That really ups the ante.
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u/dj0samaspinIaden Dec 16 '23
Really adds something to "what will you have in 5 hundred years"
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u/Shrek1sLife Dec 16 '23
It also proves that earth is valuable to take over, as that would prove humans to be compatible with viltrumite dna. If mark never got his powers there would be less incentive to actually conquer earth. Mark getting his powers cemented Nolan’s plan that he needs to take Earth as it’s a massive goldmine of extending the viltrumite population and rule in very little time.
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u/ELIte8niner Dec 16 '23
Honestly, I always thought that's what Nolan was waiting for, to see if Mark would be a human or a Viltrumite. Like, what good is Earth to Viltrum if Humans can't be used as to create more Viltrumites?
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u/SpiritofTheWolfKingx Dec 17 '23
Slaves and resources, like any other conquering empire. Massive amounts of slaves and resources and even more prestige on the galactic stage.
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u/Jonathon471 Dec 17 '23
Yup, and now that the Viltrumite Empire knows Humans are compatible with them and look similar to them its now a prime candidate for a brood world alongside the enslavement and resources of its inhabitants.
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u/ButterCupHeartXO Dec 16 '23
I read the comic but I forget so much of it. Did Nolan need to destroy the planet/civilization in order to complete his mission? If he was able to convince Cecil of a peaceful surrender and allow humanity to be assimilated into viltumite culture would that have been okay with Nolan's bosses? I forget if this is was a Saiyan/Frieza situation or not.
If that was an option, I feel like if Nolan just told Cecil the truth and said he, Omni-Man, the unstoppable force of nature is just 1 of thousands of others so it's best to just allow Earth to be absorbed by the empire and enjoy the boost to technology.
Again, I forger the terms of Nolans mission so this entire idea could be irrelevant
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Dec 16 '23
Nolan can and absolutely will try that path if he thought it would work. We get a glimpse of that in the evil mark timeline of the show. He and his invincible are trying to convince the population to stand down, that fighting back the empire is useless, and that they don’t have to and would prefer not to destroy the planet. It’s obvious the governments of the world decided to fight back, so it’s reasonable to assume Cecil would reject it.
Viltrum just wants to conquer space for the resources to rebuild their empire, and since humans and viltrumites can interbreed, the core resource of earth will be Viltrumite children. I doubt Cecil or our Mark would be happy with that.
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u/ButterCupHeartXO Dec 16 '23
I agree with you, but the alternative is mass death and destruction. It isnt even a question of "if" humanity can resist them. If surrendering doesn't involve enslavement or subjugation of some sort, then it would be such a smarter decision to go with it. Especially if future children will be super powered. Cecil should play the long game until he has a hybrid super army in 15-20 years
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u/Affectionate_Alps903 Dec 16 '23
Cecil would not be in charge anymore, or alive for that matter, viltrumites likely would put at least one of their own as olverlord of the planet and maybe a puppet government.
Also, humans would NOT have a say on interbreeding and for sure they wouldn't be the ones raising them.
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u/ButterCupHeartXO Dec 16 '23
I agree with this as well. But Cecil could run an underground resistance and just stay in the shadows. There may be some sympathetic viltrumites at some point. Didn't we kind of see this in the main story? They fell in love with humans and their children?
All I'm saying it, I think any option besides trying to have a direct war with 100s of unstoppable beings should be heavily considered
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Dec 16 '23
I don’t think Cecil would live that long. A surrender is such a betrayal of his core self that Nolan would see right through it. If he lets Cecil live Omni man would be much less competent than portrayed
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u/whiteboypizza Dec 16 '23
I agree with your take. Cecil may be pragmatic, but he’s also very prideful and doesn’t like other people having power over him. He’s allied with shady characters before, but it’s always been motivated by his desire to defend the planet and keep human casualties to a minimum. I could absolutely see Cecil sacrificing himself or fighting to the last man instead of joining Viltrum.
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u/mr-managerr Dec 16 '23
Then why not wait for Debbie to die?
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u/WardenPlays Dec 16 '23
Because love.
And it also doesn't stop Mark, who's constantly getting stronger physically and more attached to the earth, and the Immortal who could feasibly go punch for punch with Omniman with the right backup.
Nolan didn't put his all into the plan because there was a nugget of doubt in the Empire because he started making attachments to the Earth.
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u/Baby_Legs_OHerlahan Dec 16 '23
I think Nolan was just enjoying his time on Earth and being a Hero so much that he wasn’t actively thinking about conquering Earth. But when Marks powers came in, it reminded Nolan that he’s here for a very specific reason and that he’s been slacking off for long enough.
Conquering a planet with your son is probably the Viltrumite equivalent of going to a baseball game.
When Mark was young, Nolan didn’t have anyone to share his love of “baseball” with. But now that his son is old enough to swing a bat and throw a ball?
It’s Gametime, son.
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u/Matrix17 Dec 16 '23
Makes the baseball game that's not in the comic way more relevant too. It was like a complete tone shift for Nolan lol
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u/RageQuitMosh Dec 16 '23
Because now Mark can't just die after a human lifespan. Nolan had hoped that Mark and Debbie would be gone before he had to actually do his job. When Mark gained his powers he realized there was no more putting it off. Every day he waited meant another day Mark would grow closer to the people of earth. He would no longer outlive Mark. So it was now or never.
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u/thecrimsonfuckr23830 Dec 16 '23
Because it brought life as a viltrumite back into focus. Every time mark flew or used his powers it reminded him of the empire.
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u/cheese-party Dec 16 '23
I think he was prepared to live out his life with Debbie and fully human Mark and then do the conquering once they were dead and would never find out his true intentions. Once Mark was revealed to have Viltrum DNA, Nolan realized there was no putting if off anymore because Mark would now outlive him. Plus the longer he let Mark live as a human, the less likely it would be that he would side with Nolan once he learned the truth
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u/Greenman8907 Dec 16 '23
Yup. It’s why Nolan is visibly upset when Mark announces it. He didn’t want Mark to get his powers.
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u/gloriouaccountofme Dec 16 '23
The reason Nolan was in earth was to see if they can make pure Viltrumites. If not then just conquer earth
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u/BardicInclination Dec 16 '23
Adding on to what others have said about him hoping to outlive Mark and Debbie so they wouldn't be around for the conquering, I think there's another aspect. Nolan had begun to love the life he built. He'd begun to love a human life. Something that clearly happens with all the other viltrumites when they come to earth.
So when Mark doesn't manifest powers for his whole childhood like most viltrumite children do, Nolan probably hoped that Mark would never get his powers. It would mean humans and Viltrumites weren't compatible enough to make children that would become Viltrumites. It would mean earth wouldn't be worth coming to for the Viltrumites at all. It would be a waste of time.
But Mark was just a late bloomer. So when his powers do appear, Nolan realizes that hope is gone. The viltrumites are gonna come now. And Mark will be around for it. And Mark is strong. Sure he gets his butt handed to him a lot, but he goes toe to toe with a lot of other viltrumites and has come out on top. He's proof that human/viltrumite combos are not just possible, but it's a better option for stronger viltrumite warriors than other aliens(because comic book versions of genetics work like that.)
He can't live in the happy fantasy anymore.
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u/throwawayalcoholmind Dec 16 '23
Because he wasn't going to if Mark hadn't acquired his powers. He had become human and wanted to keep it that way.
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u/desPan8 Dec 16 '23
He ambushed the Immortal first cause he needed no witnesses (even if Cecil would've just figured it out). He also probably would've had an easier time with one of the heavy hitters out. Red Rush guaranteed Nolan's late downfall with that first save.
Nolan also goes straight for the head there, I do wonder why he just cut the neck instead of just popping his head like the speedster's. Maybe a bit of sentimentality in there?
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u/OniExpress Dec 16 '23
Nolan also goes straight for the head there, I do wonder why he just cut the neck instead of just popping his head like the speedster's. Maybe a bit of sentimentality in there?
Because detaching the head stops Immortal from regeneration. It's implied that he had already revived by the time John Wilkes Booth was killed, so less than 2 weeks. Probably a lot less. Google says he can regenerate limbs and organs in days. Nolan might have been concerned about a quick revival if the brain and heart weren't severed.
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u/ThatOneGuy-74 Dec 16 '23
I personally think that he ambushed them to end it as fast as possible. The gaurdians were his friends, so he didn't want to linger on their deaths and just get it over with
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u/jaggedcanyon69 Thula Dec 16 '23
Red Rush?
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u/fatloseryeetlol Dec 16 '23
You can see the guardians moving in slo-mo, Rush got his melon exploded instantly in real time
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u/metalflygon08 Reanimen Dec 16 '23
It was a fairly quick death, Red Rush got off like what, 11 punches before his cherry popped right? Those were super speed punches, so that instance had to have been really quick.
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u/THEDumbasscus Dec 16 '23
Yeah red rush was only agonizing to red rush because of super speed perception
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u/The_Big_Crouton Dec 16 '23
It’s not even them winning, they couldn’t kill him, it’s any of them surviving. If one escapes his illusion is broken.
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u/flash-tractor Séance Dog Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 16 '23
But at the same time, if one of the Guardians escaped, it would have just led to an all-out war of Earth vs. Omni-Man. Probably would have led to even more human casualties and infrastructure destruction. Hell, that could be the thing that pushes Mark to join Nolan, seeing everyone try to kill his dad would allow Nolan to try and spin it to "they attacked me first."
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u/Tyrchak Dec 16 '23
Considering how Mark helped him with the giant monster it's definitely not unlikely
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u/stormy2587 Dec 16 '23
Its actually stupid that their first move wasn’t to just retreat and regroup. Why fight him? His goal is just to kill you. Live to fight another day and deny him the element of surprise.
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u/Viridun Dec 16 '23
They thought he was being controlled, so maybe they didn't want him to run rampant. Also they thought they knew the upper limits of his power, when he's implied to have been holding back for the last few decades.
In their PoV, one of their friends who was at most only somewhat more powerful than Immortal was being mind controlled and would have been a much bigger threat if they ran. By the time they probably realized they were outmatched without a better strategy, half of them were dead.
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u/theTribbly Dec 16 '23
It seems like Omni-Man was probably the second (or maybe third) fastest supe in the group, so while some of them might escape, running all but guarantees that more than few of them were going to get killed while they try to flee. I see why in the spur of the moment they felt like they were safer off trying to fight.
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u/Eevee136 Dec 16 '23
or maybe third
Who do you see being faster than him? I agree with everything else you said, but I genuinely can't see anyone other than RR outrunning Omni-Man
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u/theTribbly Dec 16 '23
At the time I was thinking of the Immortal since he can clearly move a bit faster than most members of the Guardians. I think it's still a huge stretch to think he'd be faster than Nolan, but he's frankly the only one outside of RR that I could see being able to successfully flee.
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Dec 16 '23
He’s a viltrumite all they ever do is ambush—so to say it’s uncommon is false. If you watch the viltrumite war the survivors were the ones who blindsiding someone after they just beat someone. Basically 3rd partying tactics won that war. Even in s2-e4 Nolan sneak attacks at least 3 times and is finally beaten by a sneak attack. Lol I mean come on. Of course he needed to ambush them.
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u/man_on_hill Dec 16 '23
Nolan must have read all those memes about “Batman with prep time” and took it to heart
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u/Frosty_Public9652 Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 16 '23
But what if he just didn’t want anyone seeing him fighting the guardians? So he just decided to fight them in an enclosed area.
We also see in season 2 how strong Omni man is at his best. Implying to me although trying to kill the guardians. I don’t think he used his full power and everything he could have done to win.
And it’s obvious that Omni man is facing a dilemma. He has to kill the guardians but that doesn’t mean it’s easy for him on the inside.
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u/Argent333333 Dec 16 '23
I've said it before, but it was a suicide play. He gathers all the people most likely to kill him in a single room. He gives them warning before he's about to do it and pulls his punches heavily. He goes after the ones least likely to actually hurt him at first in order to let the heavy hitters have a few shots to actually do damage. And even with all that, it still isn't enough. He basically lets them beat on him because he really doesn't want to do this. He wants to lose. He wants any excuse to go back to Mark and Debbie or just die if he can't. But after the fight and the deaths of the guardians, he thought there was no going back anymore.
This comes to a head and you see the results of it with his fight with Mark. The entire fight he's using language that seems more tailored to convince himself than Mark. And the longer the fight goes, the more erratic and desperate he gets in his rants. He's lost faith in his upbringing but can't just escape it and give up. The fight ends with Nolan screaming about what will Mark and he have in five hundred years and the reply of "each other" breaks Nolan and hits at the root of his inner conflict. He wants a family. He wants to be happy. And living by Viltrum's rule and his upbringing all but guaranteed he would never find that. So he runs away
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u/Chewbubbles Dec 16 '23
The Guardians could've won had they taken it seriously right out of the gate, but they initially had the same response Mark had, which was they thought he was under someone else's control. Nolan, along with the ambush, had them absolutely dumbfounded out of the gate. They're basically down to what? 3 or 4 of em before they all agree they choose themselves over Nolan. By then, that's too little too late.
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u/Big_Noodle1103 Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 17 '23
That’s part of it, but tbh they were also just kinda stupid lol.
I mean, Darkwing literally just committed suicide for no reason by attacking him. And Green Ghost making herself vulnerable to catch him was also unnecessary, he was obviously dead at that point.
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u/Prankman1990 Dec 17 '23
Darkwing was silly, but Green Ghost makes sense. Catching objects is a reflexive response, and can be really disorienting to someone not expecting it because the reflex to catch objects is faster than you can consciously register.
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u/donutmcbonbon Dec 17 '23
Plus you just witnessed your friend die brutally at the hands of your other friend. I think its reasonable that someone could freeze up for a second in a situation like that
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u/Rent_A_Cloud Dec 17 '23
Catching objects is a reflexive response
Not if you work in industry it isn't, at least not if you want to keep working..
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u/Pancakewagon26 Dec 16 '23
Martian man was capable of restrainig him for sometime.
Red rush broke a bunch of his ribs and caused a decent amount of internal organ damage in about a second.
War woman and immortal were actually doing some serious damage.
If Martian man restrained him, red rush could have broken his legs or gone for the head.
Green ghost could reach into his chest and pull his heart out.
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u/theTribbly Dec 16 '23
It definitely seems like if they had a few minutes to figure out a game plan ahead of his attack they would have had a really solid fighting chance.
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u/Rent_A_Cloud Dec 17 '23
And so, the ambush was set. They were all just flabbergasted and by the time they realized what was happening they were already down a few and emotionally destroyed to the point of irrationality. Kinda like viewers like me that had no clue where the series was going.
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u/Disastrous-Scheme-57 Dec 17 '23
No geeen ghost can’t do that cuz the heart is attached. If she made his heart intangible it would essentially make his entire body intangible not just the heart.
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u/Gum_tree Dec 17 '23
Red rush definitely broke every bone in his hand to do the damage he did, given how he was throwing his punches towards the end. He still had normal human bones. He was just able to punch them at an insanely high velocity against basically a steel wall. He definitely wouldn't do that except for a last resort.
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u/Monkey_King291 Duct Tape Man Dec 16 '23
Honestly they definitely could've, Red Rush and Green Ghost on support would've helped them a lot, War Woman and Immortal wounded Nolan pretty badly, so if they all had better teamwork they definitely would've won
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u/Tyrchak Dec 16 '23
If green ghost and red rush play defense war woman and immortal can't do shit on offense. Their only advantage was numbers but Immortal and War woman get out competed in every category and they are the only 2 strong enough to bother him. We saw multiple viltrumites fighting while torn apart. One was fighting with he's entire stomach cut open. Viltrumites don't lose wars of attrition. If you can't deal a final blow they will destroy themselves to beat you.
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Dec 17 '23
Aquarius managed to pin Nolan with his water blast things with enough force to push him back, that's a decent ranged threat that would still force him to be on the defensive. That could definately create an opening for him to get grappled by Martianman and then everyone jump him instead of only War Woman and Immortal.
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u/duckyGus Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 16 '23
If Red Rush had constantly bailed them out every time they were close to him/death, they wouldn't have even touched Omni-Man. The Guardians needed to attack at some point.
And I'm pretty sure Omni-Man would have prioritized Red Rush instantly and could have caught him too. Once that happened, he would have been done.
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u/Murky_Blueberry2617 Omni-Man Dec 16 '23
Isn't Omniman actually faster than Red Rush?
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u/Hashbrown4 Comic Fan Dec 16 '23
I think of it like baseball,
A human can react to a ball going 100 mph but they could never move that fast.
Omni-man can react to red rush going X amount of speed but he can’t go that fast.
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u/Murky_Blueberry2617 Omni-Man Dec 16 '23
That makes sense.
Although Omniman actually can go that fast, but only in flight speed I think
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u/mrbulldops428 Dec 16 '23
The way he flies though, wouldn't he be just as fast then? He barely "flies" he more just moves through space. He's like an EV, all the torque all the time.
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u/IJustLostMyKeyboard Dec 16 '23
He went faster than the speed of light at the end of season 1. They say he left the solar system only a couple minutes after he left earth.
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u/mrbulldops428 Dec 16 '23
Yeah and I know where he's going because of the comics. He would need to be so fast that I kind of just ignored it as comic book logic. Like, he'd be so fast that a full speed punch would ignite the atmosphere lol
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u/AscendedKars1 Dec 16 '23
They revealed the planet he went to in the show now as well, the speed feats in invincible are so much higher than their strength scaling when looking at other series, it's funny
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u/Omicra98 Dec 17 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
It sounds dumb, but how far does the solar system extend perpendicularly? The planets are pretty much aligned on a single plane, so going with said plane would be long, but if he went perpendicular to the plane, it would be quicker?
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u/The2NDComingOfChrist Dec 17 '23
FUCK this question is driving me insane because there is literally zero answers online. Either that or I'm just ridiculously impatient lmaooo
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u/VyldFyre Dec 17 '23
It's roughly the same as where you would put the horizontal limits to be. The limits of our solar system is generally defined to be the oort cloud which is basically spherical, more or less. I mean, It's a "solar" system, after all. It should be an attribute of the sun. The Sun's gravity is constant along the surface of a sphere, so any models of demarcation would be bounded by a sphere no matter the convention you use.
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Dec 17 '23
It’s not aligned on a horizontal plane, the sun itself isn’t stationary. It’s traveling through space dragging all of the planets in the solar system along with it in a cone behind it—the farther away they are and the more mass they have, the wonkier their orbital paths get. This is why so many of their orbital cycles take so long and are elliptical.
However, because all of their paths are centered on the same point, it’s inevitable that they’ll line up in a straight line even if it takes a really really long time.
It’s taught the way it is because it uses a simplified reference frame that corrects all the orbital paths so that it’s easier for children to understand, even if it does create some problematic assumptions about how the solar system functions that need to be corrected later should someone pursue astrophysics.
This is a much more accurate model of what the solar system looks like as it travels through space (not counting for the sun’s own path through the Milky Way, though).
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u/walla_walla_rhubarb Dec 17 '23
But he is able to accelerate continuously in space. So it takes a couple of minutes to get up to FTL, in a perfect vacuum.
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u/GrainsofArcadia Earth isn't yours to conquer Dec 16 '23
I saw someone on this sub the other day saying that Nolan can fly at FTL speeds. While I find it hard to believe, it would have to be the case if flying between planets is going to be even remotely possible.
So, I suppose he can travel faster than Red Rush.
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u/mrbulldops428 Dec 16 '23
Yeah I was thinking that on a rewatch of season 1 before 2 came out. I've read the first half of the comics so I know he's going very far. And to be able to do that and not take thousands of years he'd have to be going FTL. I chose to just ignore that lol he could destroy a planet by just taking a step if that were the case lol
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u/justwalkingalonghere Dec 16 '23
I would say it’s more speed vs agility.
It seems that Red has high agility, almost like time moves slower to him, but Omni man could definitely beat him in a race where his flight has time to accelerate because Omni man’s top speed is faster. Presumably much, much faster to be able to traverse the universe in any meaningful way
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u/MufugginJellyfish Dec 16 '23
I would agree except he does precisely that in the show.
He catches RR mid punch and crushes his skull, I suppose you could say he's fought with RR long enough to know his moves and just grabbed when he felt RR was going to hit him again but even then it requires reaction time close to RR's own.
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u/fardnshid03 Dec 16 '23
I always figured that he could move as fast as red rush but couldn’t perceive time as slowly as red rush. Seems like the case because he easily grabs him but also kills him as fast and efficient as possible like he’s trying not to get caught with something he didn’t see coming later in the fight.
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u/Matrix17 Dec 16 '23
Red rush pretty much did the most damage to omni man too. I think technically he was the biggest threat besides green ghost
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u/canuck1701 Dec 16 '23
That's exactly what the guy above you said. Omni Man can react to red rush, but he might not be able to beat him in a foot race.
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u/masthema Dec 16 '23
If you pay close attention, you can see Rush attacks on whatever side Omniman is not paying attention. Omniman picks up on this and feigns paying attention to his left while expecting Rush to attack from his right. It's skill, not reaction speed
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u/Meatyblues Dec 16 '23
Not at all. If that was the case he wouldn’t have bothered baiting Red Rushs punch in order to catch it. He would’ve just chased him down and killed him
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u/IAmRedditsDad Dec 16 '23
Yes and no. He can go faster, but he has to build that speed. If he did that while on planet he'd destroy everything, igniting the atmosphere. It's what he did to the Thraxxan planet a few times. It's also how Viltrimites are able to use flight as thier primary travel mode through space.
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u/ArthurMorgan694 Omni-Man Dec 16 '23
He is but Red Rush can move that fast without speed build-up. Omni-Man is ultimately faster but he builds his insane speed up.
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u/lcsulla87gmail Dec 16 '23
Do we have any data on red rush's top speed. Do we know he's not capable of ftl?
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u/Lawlcopt0r Dec 16 '23
I think the idea would be that they focus on attacking and red rush focuses on keeping them alive
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u/jockeyman Dec 16 '23
Darkwing, Red Rush, Aquarius, Ghost, and Martian Man keep doing things to keep Omniman off balance (water blasts, binding him, hitting him with bombs), Immortal and War Woman swoop in to do heavier damage, Red Rush tags them out so the others can pepper him with attacks again, rinse and repeat.
Could've worked, honestly.
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u/commander_weenie Dec 16 '23
Absolutely. That hit from War Woman with her mace fucked him up good. If Red Rush stayed alive to support his team they would've beaten Nolan eventually
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u/DadTouched Dec 16 '23
Yeah Nolan had to deal with them quick, it was a battle of attrition and he got the advantage
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u/callme_blinktore Dec 16 '23
That ringing noise after that solid hit and Omni-Man staggering, needing to take a second to recover, yeah War Woman was Fierce with one hit.
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u/Drunk_Carlton_Banks Dec 17 '23
And the way Nolan’s eye looked like it was about to pop out of his skull too
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u/alexeratops Dec 16 '23
I feel like if war womans mace was spiked it would have done a better job taking him out lol
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u/spock2vok Dec 17 '23
I mean for real. In season 2 they get fucked up by some stalagmites.
Edit: And a knife on some hair lol
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u/IAmRedditsDad Dec 16 '23
Bear in mind Nolan also ripped out a man's whole stomach and that man said "damn you should done more." He ripped off a woman's jaw, and she's still alive, and those are just the show examples. War woman's mace looking like it hurt does not mean thru could have beat him
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u/Striking-Hedgehog-51 Dec 16 '23
The mace itself couldn't beat him, but could open him up to continuous agression from the entire team. Even Dark Wing's explosive batarangs were staggering Omni-Man. Also, she hit him once. What if she managed to land 4 or 5 more of those massive hits on top of Immortal pummeling his face? With better coordination they could've taken him down eventually.
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u/UKCountryBall Dec 17 '23
I know they could beat him but I always find it funny when immortal is talked about because he is laughably weak compared to invincible and omniman in terms of raw strength.
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u/ticketspleasethanks Dec 16 '23
Maybe if he protected his hands with something durable?
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u/stonks1234567890 Dec 16 '23
Yeah... I don't think that's what killed him.
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u/RevolutionaryGrape11 Dec 16 '23
Yes, I think it was a different pair of red hands that did the deed.
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u/Ratattack1204 Cecil Stedman Dec 16 '23
Now i actually wonder what kinda damage he would have done had he had some super powered brass knuckles haha
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u/sendearpics Dec 16 '23
Considering the damage they already did to him and the fact that he even had to plan an ambush shows that the guardians of the globe definitely could kill him in a planned strategic fight. Though some may say omniman might have let himself be injured to make his story more believable to Cecil. Depends.
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u/donutdong Dec 16 '23
Yes. You use red rush to escape and then plan a concerted surprise attack, like the avengers did to Thanos at the beginning of end game.
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u/IAmRedditsDad Dec 16 '23
Also what Britt and Immortal did much later against [HUGE goddamm spoiler] robot
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u/TheBigNook Dec 16 '23
I don’t think there is a reality where the Guardians are surprise attacked by a Viltrumite as powerful as Nolan and they come out on top.
It may seem like they did some heavy damage to Nolan, but we’ve seen Invincible take a lot more damage and come back no problem. I’m not sure Nolan was all that challenged here.
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Dec 16 '23
He may have been holding back to make it seem more believable. Still impressive, no doubt. The damage was done.
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u/The_Big_Crouton Dec 16 '23
Not to mention it being an emotional challenge. He can claim he didn’t care about them all he wants, he was still friends with them.
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u/Neirchill Dec 16 '23
Was he? Seemed like he didn't enjoy partnering with them, although that could have been him not wanting to get close because he knew he'd have to kill them someday
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u/Gathorall Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 17 '23
He wasn't an official member but apparently attended some Guardians social functions, Red Rush's SO is a good friend of Debbie, and he makes some remarks that clearly show he knows many of the Guardians well, and says that he never liked Immortal in a way that implies that he's an exception and that he tried to cultivate relationships with the team. Art also seems to regard him as decently sociable.
Honestly I think he's more annoyed that the Guardians, the premier team who can actually operate at the magnitude of his level as an unit use him as a strutch.
It is inconvenient for him, harshly against the values of strength and self-reliance he does always retain, and to him may just seem lazy. Like come on, if they're half serious they should be beating Maulers six ways to sunday.
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u/Paragonoreo Dec 16 '23
Comic spoilers: he was holding back substantially
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Dec 16 '23
While I didn’t read the first thirteen issues, I’m aware. However, I do know the show changed a lot about that fight. He wrecked them easily in the comic.
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u/TSM- Dec 16 '23
This was improved in the show, to explain why he had to kill the guardians (but not other superhero teams). It was a close fight.
The comics messed it up by doing it in one "whoa" page where he just kills each one, one per panel. But that made it seem unnecessary. Later on, in the time reset, it's shown that the Guardians could beat Nolan with prep time, after Invincible warned them which, lore-wise, overrides the fast action of the first encounter in the early issues.
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u/Parking-Bat9498 Dec 16 '23
I came here to say this and you said it perfectly. Well done. Definitely possible with what you said.
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Dec 16 '23
True.
So, with that, how did the person I’m replying to figure that OM was, “holding back substantially,” and consider it a comic spoiler?
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u/MustLocateCheese Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 16 '23
I will never not think this is stupid. My man was hospitalised, in a coma, and for a time, they weren't even fully sure he would survive. He didn't plan for that no matter what way you twist it.
The whole idea is that he ambushed them for being a major threat. Clearly they reinterpreted it in the show to make this believable by having them put up a good fight. Makes more sense than these supposed 'big threats' being fodderised in one panel.
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u/treetopkingdom The Elephant Dec 16 '23
He passed out and was hospitalized, he was pushed to the limit
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u/TheBigNook Dec 16 '23
Yeah after everyone had died, had another person been alive he would have killed them before passing out 100%
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u/treetopkingdom The Elephant Dec 16 '23
Still, pushed to the limit, whether he still had the stamina to take someone else out is up for debate. He was running off pure adrenaline at that point.
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u/TheBigNook Dec 16 '23
Which is something Viltrumites are known for. If we look at Lucan, who sustained much worse injuries imo, dude managed to push through and FUCK Nolan up after being out just a time.
Nolan would’ve pushed through whatever injuries he sustained until the job was done and I don’t think the GoG could work around the dude’s adrenaline/survival instinct.
Like the GoG couldn’t take on any of the strongest Viltrumites in just about any scenario
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Dec 16 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/TheBigNook Dec 16 '23
Oh yeah, with outside circumstances they could handle the situation
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u/kerriazes Dec 16 '23
we’ve seen Invincible take a lot more damage and come back no problem
To be fair, every time Invincible was allowed to heal.
I doubt they'd give the same chance to Nolan without detaining him.
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u/TheBigNook Dec 16 '23
That’s a fair point, but I also don’t think Nolan recieved any injuries that would’ve kept him from killing them off. Yes he passed out and had to recover but only noticeably after everyone was dead. If someone had remained alive to threaten his motive he would’ve pushed through to kill them.
His power level is just leagues above the GoG
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u/kerriazes Dec 16 '23
Oh I wasn't saying Nolan wouldn't win every time he went against the GoG (unless they were given serious prep time to strategize), just that the comparison to Invincible isn't really accurate since every time Invincible was saved from death by something else.
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u/TheBigNook Dec 16 '23
I was more trying to highlight the durability of Viltrumites in that they’re extremely difficult to kill and once they are in that zone of extreme anger/motivation, injuries just mean less to them
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u/whatup_pips Comic Fan Dec 16 '23
I think if red rush had gotten the guardians OUTSIDE of the facilities, into a public space, they might've gotten away, since Omni-man was trying to do this in secret, if the guardians had gone somewhere public, he might've stopped.
Either that or he would've said "fuck it" and shown his true intentions. Who knows.
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u/Kaghei Dec 16 '23
I think he would have just gone into full conquer mode if they had managed to get into public space. Mark would have then had to step in to call him off
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u/Tyrchak Dec 16 '23
If he got them outside Omni man would have had no option other than go full scorched Earth. Cecil already trusted the Guardians more than Nolan, noone would believe him. If they get backup in time they could probably beat him, depending on what backup comes.
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u/Weird-Treat8741 Dec 16 '23
If red rush stuck to just playing defense, they could have absolutely beat Nolan. The reckless aggression of RR and nightwing contributed to their loss
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u/Tobito_TV Mark from Burger Mart Dec 16 '23
Spoilers for the comic:
They absolutely could've, as seen in the alternate timeline Mark was trapped in. He warned the Guardians ahead of time and they were able to subdue Nolan
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u/happntime Dec 16 '23 edited Dec 16 '23
I think they would’ve died no matter what. Omni man had clear intent to kill them and I doubt he would have failed
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Dec 16 '23
I’m thinking the Red Rush and Omniman interaction would look like a blur to those without enhanced speed. That stuff happened too fast. So died while reacting in shock to what they were seeing for instance.
Maybe they could have come up with a plan to slow Omniman down and maybe hurt him a bit but….its hard to call.
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u/Greenman8907 Dec 16 '23
Yup, all told it was probably like a second between Nolan catching RR and the head crush. RR can throw a thousand punches in a second.
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u/Kaghei Dec 16 '23
Yeah it took a second watching for me to reason when red rush was punching his chest it was all in slow motion. He would have had his head exploded in the blink of an eye, which explains why no one else was hitting Omni man while red rush was.
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u/sosen42 Dec 16 '23
Given that in the comic during the whole time travel thing they do subdue him, yeah if they had a chance to regroup they could have beat him
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u/lalo_salamanca17 Omni-Drip Dec 16 '23
I am currently watching a video of if the gaurdians could have beat nolan. Opening reddit to this at the top is kinda scary
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u/Striking-Hedgehog-51 Dec 16 '23
Several things could've worked better:
- Red Rush keeping to his support role the entire fight;
- The Green Ghost remaining a ghost to give Nolan a distracting non-target;
- Martian Man not leaving his only vulnerable part within Nolan's arm reach while immobilizing him;
- Dark Wing ditching the noisy cape so Nolan couldn't hear him coming from above;
- And the most important imo: Immortal taking action faster. He waits for Nolan to kill Red Rush, Green Ghost, Fishman and Dark Wing to only then step into the fight. He and War Woman were the only ones capable of taking on Omni-Man head-on, but only she does it for most of the fight. When Immortal finally decides to participate, most of the team is already dead.
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u/Drummk Green Ghost Dec 16 '23
Their strategy generally was awful. E.g. Green Ghost should have stayed intangible the whole fight.
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u/bladex1234 Dec 16 '23
Yes. If Red Rush just played defense, War Woman and Immortal could have worn him down.
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u/dayburner Dec 16 '23
No, he was just preventing the inevitable. Only advantage they had was how thrown off Omniman was by internal conflict over his actions.
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u/Atomicmooseofcheese Dec 17 '23
They'd have killed him if it was them fighting to the death from second zero. That's why he did what he did, they were the only ones who actually had a shot at stopping him.
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u/Omnislash99999 Dec 16 '23
As it's presented in the show they had a chance if Red Rush had kept to the defensive strategy, in fact it looks more like the writers just didn't have any idea how to deal with it other than have Red Rush do something stupid.
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u/untempered_fate Burger Mart Trash Bag Dec 16 '23
Red Rush should have gone straight to Cecil, but those are his friends and coworkers. Regardless, it is unlikely Cecil could have done much. We saw his best, with prep time, and it wasn't enough.
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u/jesst177 Dec 16 '23
The think I dont understand is why Cecill never created an attack plan. Cecil always gave me planning master vibes of batman, so I was expecting him to create a plan for every member.
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u/Numerous_Tangelo4332 Donald Ferguson Dec 16 '23
In the comic there's a part of the story that "retells" that event. Yes they could have won if they used a few of their cards better. War woman was surely the glasscannon there, if she survived long enough she would have been able to hit him a few times really strongly, but she's basically one shot for omniman.
Also, in the comic we have a much better look at Nolan's prospective. He wasn't happy doing that, they were friends, as he wasn't really happy killing ANY human. He cared for them but only did that for the sake of the viltrume empire. If they only tried to talk with him more while fighting they could have pulled off a kinda-happy ending, probably losing some of them, but not all.
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u/hotstepper77777 Dec 16 '23
In theory, yes, but I think brick supes like Nolan would inevitably learn to predict where the speedster will go next.
Unless Red Rush was working to evacuate, attrition wins out.
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u/CaptainShenanigan Dec 16 '23
In the show? Yeah.
In the comic… nah they were fucked no matter what.
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u/tristenjpl Dec 16 '23
In the comic, they do beat him in the reboot arc. Sure, Mark was there, but Mark did barely anything in that fight. The odds aren't in their favour at any point, but they do have a chance at winning.
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u/DDESTRUCTOTRON Giant Dec 16 '23
In the comic Omni-Man kills the guardians all at once in almost the blink of an eye, so imo it's implied that he was at least just as fast as Red Rush and that the ambush was staged just to get them all alone in one place
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u/OkBubbyBaka Dec 16 '23
But at the same time, they defeat him when they were for-warned by reboot Mark.
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u/Gerry-Cann Dec 16 '23
If green ghost went intangible then there was nothing Nolan could do