r/Invincible • u/RevolutionaryGrape11 • Dec 16 '23

Do you think the Guardians Of The Globe could have won if Red Rush had stuck to just bailing the others out of death and hadn't attacked himself, or do you think everyone was doomed no matter what? They did put up a great fight even after he was removed, so I think it's plausible they could have. DISCUSSION

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u/Kinggakman Dec 16 '23

He also needed to do it in secret and wanted to do it all at once. The ambush came more out of necessity rather than him doing it intentionally.

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u/Infinite_Waves1 Dec 16 '23

In addition, Nolan was enjoying his time on Earth and wanted it to stay the same for as long as possible. It was when Mark got his powers that he realised he needed to start doing the taking over part of his job.

I think if he didn't care about maintaining his human life he would have just gone full direct war and won with ease as he did in the other universes.

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u/ECGeorge Dec 16 '23

This always confused me—why does mark getting his powers convince omniman that it’s finally time to kill the guardians?

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u/SWaitingInTheSky Dec 16 '23

The comics explain a little bit better.

Nolan was given 500 years to take over Earth.

If Mark didn't end up getting powers, Omni man would wait for Mark and Debbie to die of old age. Only after that he would resume his mission. Pretty solid plan.

But Mark getting his powers ensured that he would still be there in 500 years. So there was no point in waiting to take over. More than that, I think that Omni man knew that Mark and him would only get more attached to Earth, so he probably decided that it was time to take actions before it was too late.

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u/BirthdayNegative7595 Dec 16 '23

That makes more sense. Also factor in the fact that Mark would get better and stronger every year, so the earlier Nolan took action the more likely he succeeds

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u/Awoawesome Dec 16 '23

The more likely he succeeds and the more likely he can indoctrinate and convert Mark to the viltrumite side

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u/OOOOOO0OOOOO Dec 17 '23

I think the opposite is true. If Nolan had waited 300 years it would have given Mark enough distance from the past, and restarts, that he would see Nolan’s point about humans.

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u/Lucifeces Dec 17 '23

I agree with you here. Like let mom and everyone else he’s attached to pass all while taking up how great viltrumkte is and how they need to start focusing on the mission etc….

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u/OOOOOO0OOOOO Dec 17 '23

Exactly, Omni-man just got impatient.

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u/JerevStormchaser Dec 17 '23

If we've learned anything it's that Viltrumites are not famous for their patience.

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u/masterionxxx Dec 17 '23

He'll have his own kids and they'll have their own kids, and now Mark has to enslave or, worse yet, kill his own dynasty.

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u/Dirtywalnuts Dec 20 '23

Wouldn't his kids also be Viltrumites? Omniman says something along the lines of "viltrumite dna is so pure that you're practically 100% Viltrumite" to Mark.

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u/ChristianRecon Dec 17 '23

That’s a good point, but you also have to worry how strong a 300 year old Mark would be. That really ups the ante.

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u/OOOOOO0OOOOO Dec 17 '23

After 300 years (or fewer probably) all of Marks original ties and even their kids would have been long gone. He would probably be more like Nolan at that point.

His strength would only help the Viltrumite mission.

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u/ChristianRecon Dec 17 '23

That’s true. But if Nolan did fail to turn Mark, his plan would blow up in his face even more, which is why I said it ups the ante.

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u/Rescue-a-memory Dec 17 '23

Very interesting take.

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u/dj0samaspinIaden Dec 16 '23

Really adds something to "what will you have in 5 hundred years"

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u/SnarkyRogue Dec 16 '23

Adds weight to Mark's reply too

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u/baelrog Dec 17 '23

Abraham Lincoln

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u/Shrek1sLife Dec 16 '23

It also proves that earth is valuable to take over, as that would prove humans to be compatible with viltrumite dna. If mark never got his powers there would be less incentive to actually conquer earth. Mark getting his powers cemented Nolan’s plan that he needs to take Earth as it’s a massive goldmine of extending the viltrumite population and rule in very little time.

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u/ELIte8niner Dec 16 '23

Honestly, I always thought that's what Nolan was waiting for, to see if Mark would be a human or a Viltrumite. Like, what good is Earth to Viltrum if Humans can't be used as to create more Viltrumites?

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u/SpiritofTheWolfKingx Dec 17 '23

Slaves and resources, like any other conquering empire. Massive amounts of slaves and resources and even more prestige on the galactic stage.

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u/Jonathon471 Dec 17 '23

Yup, and now that the Viltrumite Empire knows Humans are compatible with them and look similar to them its now a prime candidate for a brood world alongside the enslavement and resources of its inhabitants.

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u/Daedalus871 Dec 17 '23

Viltrumites still wanted an empire, but yeah, it would downgrade the importance of Earth a ton.

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u/ButterCupHeartXO Dec 16 '23

I read the comic but I forget so much of it. Did Nolan need to destroy the planet/civilization in order to complete his mission? If he was able to convince Cecil of a peaceful surrender and allow humanity to be assimilated into viltumite culture would that have been okay with Nolan's bosses? I forget if this is was a Saiyan/Frieza situation or not.

If that was an option, I feel like if Nolan just told Cecil the truth and said he, Omni-Man, the unstoppable force of nature is just 1 of thousands of others so it's best to just allow Earth to be absorbed by the empire and enjoy the boost to technology.

Again, I forger the terms of Nolans mission so this entire idea could be irrelevant

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u/[deleted] Dec 16 '23

Nolan can and absolutely will try that path if he thought it would work. We get a glimpse of that in the evil mark timeline of the show. He and his invincible are trying to convince the population to stand down, that fighting back the empire is useless, and that they don’t have to and would prefer not to destroy the planet. It’s obvious the governments of the world decided to fight back, so it’s reasonable to assume Cecil would reject it.

Viltrum just wants to conquer space for the resources to rebuild their empire, and since humans and viltrumites can interbreed, the core resource of earth will be Viltrumite children. I doubt Cecil or our Mark would be happy with that.

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u/ButterCupHeartXO Dec 16 '23

I agree with you, but the alternative is mass death and destruction. It isnt even a question of "if" humanity can resist them. If surrendering doesn't involve enslavement or subjugation of some sort, then it would be such a smarter decision to go with it. Especially if future children will be super powered. Cecil should play the long game until he has a hybrid super army in 15-20 years

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u/Affectionate_Alps903 Dec 16 '23

Cecil would not be in charge anymore, or alive for that matter, viltrumites likely would put at least one of their own as olverlord of the planet and maybe a puppet government.

Also, humans would NOT have a say on interbreeding and for sure they wouldn't be the ones raising them.

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u/ButterCupHeartXO Dec 16 '23

I agree with this as well. But Cecil could run an underground resistance and just stay in the shadows. There may be some sympathetic viltrumites at some point. Didn't we kind of see this in the main story? They fell in love with humans and their children?

All I'm saying it, I think any option besides trying to have a direct war with 100s of unstoppable beings should be heavily considered

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u/[deleted] Dec 16 '23

I don’t think Cecil would live that long. A surrender is such a betrayal of his core self that Nolan would see right through it. If he lets Cecil live Omni man would be much less competent than portrayed

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u/TheCybersmith Dec 16 '23

Cecil isn't a young man. Will he be alive in 15-20 years?

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u/whiteboypizza Dec 16 '23

I agree with your take. Cecil may be pragmatic, but he’s also very prideful and doesn’t like other people having power over him. He’s allied with shady characters before, but it’s always been motivated by his desire to defend the planet and keep human casualties to a minimum. I could absolutely see Cecil sacrificing himself or fighting to the last man instead of joining Viltrum.

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u/Volgyi2000 Dec 17 '23

The Viltrumites conquered worlds for their resources. They would use those planets' populations to bolster their armies and operational capabilities. Ideally, most planets would give up and assimilate. Populations and planets weren't destroyed unless they resisted. I would assume resisted continually, as destroying a planet at the first sign of resistance is pragmatically nonsensical.

Usually, some small number of Viltrumites would swoop in with their armies after the Viltrumite on the planet softened them up and got all the planets intel they needed to conquer it.

Allen's planet resisted and was destroyed.

I also don't think there is any scenario where Cecil would acquiesce to Nolan's demands.

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u/MagicHamsta Dec 17 '23

Completely necessary. Viltrumite society wouldn't have allowed native government/forces/civilizations. Even if he managed to conquer them peacefully, the Viltrumites would've stepped in and probably demote/murder Nolan if he didn't do his job properly.

Did Nolan need to destroy the planet/civilization in order to complete his mission?

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u/mr-managerr Dec 16 '23

Then why not wait for Debbie to die?

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u/WardenPlays Dec 16 '23

Because love.

And it also doesn't stop Mark, who's constantly getting stronger physically and more attached to the earth, and the Immortal who could feasibly go punch for punch with Omniman with the right backup.

Nolan didn't put his all into the plan because there was a nugget of doubt in the Empire because he started making attachments to the Earth.

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u/MrOdo Dec 17 '23

Immortal is quickly outpaced by Mark and is treated like a joke throughout the series in terms of power.

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u/Self_World_Future Dec 17 '23

I don’t think Nolan realized how attached he would be to Earth, let alone Mark

He definitely would have raised him to be a viltrumite soldier if he considered that

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u/scandaka_ Dec 17 '23

Why was he given 500 years? Why not just take it immediately?

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u/MrOdo Dec 17 '23

I thought it was because Mark demonstrated the purity and effectiveness of a human-viltrumite hybrid. Which guaranteed that Earth would always be the highest priority target of Viltrum

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u/RizzTheLightning Dec 17 '23

500 years sounds like a really generous amount of time to take over Earth considering how strong Viltrumites are

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u/Baby_Legs_OHerlahan Dec 16 '23

I think Nolan was just enjoying his time on Earth and being a Hero so much that he wasn’t actively thinking about conquering Earth. But when Marks powers came in, it reminded Nolan that he’s here for a very specific reason and that he’s been slacking off for long enough.

Conquering a planet with your son is probably the Viltrumite equivalent of going to a baseball game.

When Mark was young, Nolan didn’t have anyone to share his love of “baseball” with. But now that his son is old enough to swing a bat and throw a ball?

It’s Gametime, son.

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u/Matrix17 Dec 16 '23

Makes the baseball game that's not in the comic way more relevant too. It was like a complete tone shift for Nolan lol

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u/Kellythejellyman Dec 16 '23

he couldn’t wait to properly train Mark

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u/RageQuitMosh Dec 16 '23

Because now Mark can't just die after a human lifespan. Nolan had hoped that Mark and Debbie would be gone before he had to actually do his job. When Mark gained his powers he realized there was no more putting it off. Every day he waited meant another day Mark would grow closer to the people of earth. He would no longer outlive Mark. So it was now or never.

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u/thecrimsonfuckr23830 Dec 16 '23

Because it brought life as a viltrumite back into focus. Every time mark flew or used his powers it reminded him of the empire.

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u/cheese-party Dec 16 '23

I think he was prepared to live out his life with Debbie and fully human Mark and then do the conquering once they were dead and would never find out his true intentions. Once Mark was revealed to have Viltrum DNA, Nolan realized there was no putting if off anymore because Mark would now outlive him. Plus the longer he let Mark live as a human, the less likely it would be that he would side with Nolan once he learned the truth

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u/Greenman8907 Dec 16 '23

Yup. It’s why Nolan is visibly upset when Mark announces it. He didn’t want Mark to get his powers.

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u/gloriouaccountofme Dec 16 '23

The reason Nolan was in earth was to see if they can make pure Viltrumites. If not then just conquer earth

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u/BardicInclination Dec 16 '23

Adding on to what others have said about him hoping to outlive Mark and Debbie so they wouldn't be around for the conquering, I think there's another aspect. Nolan had begun to love the life he built. He'd begun to love a human life. Something that clearly happens with all the other viltrumites when they come to earth.

So when Mark doesn't manifest powers for his whole childhood like most viltrumite children do, Nolan probably hoped that Mark would never get his powers. It would mean humans and Viltrumites weren't compatible enough to make children that would become Viltrumites. It would mean earth wouldn't be worth coming to for the Viltrumites at all. It would be a waste of time.

But Mark was just a late bloomer. So when his powers do appear, Nolan realizes that hope is gone. The viltrumites are gonna come now. And Mark will be around for it. And Mark is strong. Sure he gets his butt handed to him a lot, but he goes toe to toe with a lot of other viltrumites and has come out on top. He's proof that human/viltrumite combos are not just possible, but it's a better option for stronger viltrumite warriors than other aliens(because comic book versions of genetics work like that.)

He can't live in the happy fantasy anymore.

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u/throwawayalcoholmind Dec 16 '23

Because he wasn't going to if Mark hadn't acquired his powers. He had become human and wanted to keep it that way.

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u/YoloIsNotDead Dec 21 '23

I think that's partly why he bided his time. He realized he wouldn't have much of a chance by himself against all the superpowered people on Earth, or it would be really hard. That's why when Mark's Viltrumite powers kicked in, he gave it a go and nearly died (since his previous assumption would be right: killing them all would be really tough).

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u/desPan8 Dec 16 '23

He ambushed the Immortal first cause he needed no witnesses (even if Cecil would've just figured it out). He also probably would've had an easier time with one of the heavy hitters out. Red Rush guaranteed Nolan's late downfall with that first save.

Nolan also goes straight for the head there, I do wonder why he just cut the neck instead of just popping his head like the speedster's. Maybe a bit of sentimentality in there?

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u/OniExpress Dec 16 '23

Nolan also goes straight for the head there, I do wonder why he just cut the neck instead of just popping his head like the speedster's. Maybe a bit of sentimentality in there?

Because detaching the head stops Immortal from regeneration. It's implied that he had already revived by the time John Wilkes Booth was killed, so less than 2 weeks. Probably a lot less. Google says he can regenerate limbs and organs in days. Nolan might have been concerned about a quick revival if the brain and heart weren't severed.

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u/ngl_prettybad Dec 17 '23

He was also counting on the intimidation making them disorganized. Imagine how inefficient the justice league would be if superman attacked out of the blue.

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u/Iceman9161 Dec 17 '23

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. If he didn’t care about the fallout of getting caught, then he would’ve just hunted them all down individually. Calling them all to a single location made it a harder fight. It would’ve been easier to kill them all individually, he’s prob be able to get half if not all of them before the others even realized.