r/politics • u/croato87 • 2d ago
America Lost the First Biden-Trump Debate Soft Paywall
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/america-lost-first-biden-trump-debate-1235048539/3.0k
u/xman747x 2d ago
"The debate continued, of course. And, in fairness, Biden slowly picked himself up off the mat and began to steady his performance. Fortunately for Biden, Donald Trump was not landing haymakers. In fact, the 45th president repeatedly exposed his own weak chin, digressing — if more energetically than Biden — into bouts of verbal diarrhea, as when he said of Biden: “He’s become like a Palestinian. But they don’t like him because he’s a very bad Palestinian.” Or when he alleged of Biden, nonsensically: “He’s the one to kill people with the bad water including hundreds of thousands of people dying.” Trump, also flashed menace, pushing dark lies about Democrats seeking to murder babies “after birth,” while making bizarre claims about his environmental record: “We had H2O, we had the best numbers ever.”
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u/Available_Cream2305 2d ago
We had H2O with the best numbers, we would have had H3O but with a rigged election the Biden administration stopped us
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u/Solid_Camel_1913 2d ago
Lets have a round of H2O2 for everyone.
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u/thebite101 2d ago
H2SO4 it’s twice as good and the “s” is for super
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u/kaewan 2d ago
There once was a boy who is no more. What he thought was H2O was H2SO4.
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u/tuscaloser 2d ago
A dying mosquito exclaimed:
A chemist has poisoned my brain!
The cause of his sorrow was
Para-dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane
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u/SwimmerSwagger 2d ago
As someone who works in water, yes, we are indeed working on H3O! It just includes yummy PFAS, PFOA, and microplastics.
*Spoiler alert, we updated to H3O long ago without you knowing ;)
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u/stataryus 2d ago
Yo, an oxygen with 3 bonds?? Welcome to the 3rd millenium!
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u/MithraicMembrane 2d ago edited 2d ago
Any water solution that has a pH below 7 will have hydronium ions in it
Edit: all water solutions will have hydroxide and hydronium, the equilibrium is shifted towards H3O+ at pH under 7, but you will still have mostly H2O molecules in solution
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u/sean0883 California 2d ago
You know folks, we have a great thing with water - you know water, H2O - everybody knows it. Not many people know this, but the O stands for oxygen, but I knew that. My uncle, he was at MIT, so I understand these things. It's in my blood, folks.
But then along comes the Biden administration, and what do they do? They mess it up, big time.
You know what they didn't do? They didn't add another O to H2O. They don't want you to have more oxygen in your water. They could've made it H2O2, but they didn't have the vision, they didn't have the guts. And now look at us, stuck with plain old H2O.
But mark my words, we're going to fix it. We're going to add that second O, and we're going to make water great again. It's going to be tremendous, folks, absolutely tremendous. So stay tuned, because we're going to get it done.
(ChatGPT wrote most of this. I only really did some slight editing and a couple things it was struggling with. You have to give it a few correction prompts to reel it in, but it's a great bit of fun for most anything.)
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u/Financial-Orchid938 2d ago edited 2d ago
You forgot to add the "literally everyone wants this" as well as "every water scholar is in agreement"
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u/geforce2187 2d ago
And the part where a big strong man came to him with tears in his eyes and addressed him as "sir"
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u/The_River_Is_Still 2d ago
He speaks his bullshit and complete nonsense confidently, that’s who I want running the country!
Never mind the absolute sacks of shit he’d have in his cabinet. Biden might be old, but he surrounds himself with people who have education and experience in area they’re assigned to.
Trump is a vile lowlife. One of the worst people in the public eye in history, in my opinion. He’s fucking disgusting and history is going to tear apart this timeline and how we let it get this far.
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u/PM_ME_GARFIELD_NUDES 2d ago
It’s ridiculous that people act like the only thing keeping Trump back is political prejudice from the left. The dude has been famous my whole life, specifically for lying, being manipulative, and just being an overall bag of shit. He has never done anything worth celebrating. There’s nothing political about it, I wouldn’t want the guy running a hot dog stand either and I certainly wouldn’t eat from one he was working at.
I don’t care how much energy Biden shows during a debate. I don’t care how he talks or that he stutters. He’s still more capable than the other option. I would trust him to run a hot dog stand at least.
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u/relator_fabula 2d ago
Not enough people understand this. The President does not run the country, and a good President does not try to run the country. A good President listens, delegates, and surrounds himself with a lot of experienced, qualified people who can help run the executive branch. This is what Biden has done with empathy and compassion, with a genuine intent to help everyone in this country.
Trump is a lying cheating sack of pus who surrounds himself with yes men, opportunists, and fascists. He will hurt anyone to boost his ego, to get revenge, or simple because he likes it.
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u/smokeeye 2d ago edited 2d ago
Is it AP or some other news aggregator that spins out this stuff? Because it is the same being said, word for word almost in many newsoutlets in Europe, including here in Norway.
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u/invokereform 2d ago
Rolling Stone is a pretty respectable news outlet. I wouldn't be surprised if foreign nations are just sourcing their articles.
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u/smokeeye 2d ago
Sure, not trying to discredit them. Same as AP is usually factual.
Just weird that in the whole western hemisphere the last 12 hours have only been about how Biden flunked and Trump is apparently the "winner"..
I am not from the U.S, but I do follow the news, inc US news every day and it just seems so coordinated.
I'll take my tinfoilhat off now.
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u/PriveChecker182 2d ago
Just weird that in the whole western hemisphere the last 12 hours have only been about how Biden flunked and Trump is apparently the "winner"..
Because trump was the same guy he's been for 9 years, and Biden humiliated himself. I'm a Biden supporter, and it's the truth. The man did not perform as needed.
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u/invokereform 2d ago
Yup. Biden was the only candidate who spoke with substance but sounded like shit. Most independent people won't look past his speech issues.
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u/Nukemind Texas 2d ago
Exactly what I felt and I didn’t watch, just listened while working.
First 30 seconds I even sent a text asking if he looked sick as his voice was off.
Biden may have stumbled but he spoke nothing but facts. That doesn’t matter. People are looking at candidates and comparing them to what their current opinions are of them. Trump came in and, thanks to the muted microphones, didn’t appear AS MUCH OF a bully as he usually does. He had some verbal diarrhea but he sounded strong.
Biden sounded old and tired.
Biden did a lot of things I like and I’m voting for him. But all I’ve heard at work today is how old he sounded, how weak he sounded. That’s what people are looking at unfortunately.
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u/smokeeye 2d ago
That is true, but that line of thought also invites to disregard everything he (Biden) and his cabinet/adminsistration have done for the last 3.5 years.
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u/PriveChecker182 2d ago
There's the world as I wish it was, and the world as it is. As pathetic as it is, a vast swath of the American electorate believes the President is a king who single handedly does everything, and that there's little difference between the two options to begin with.
People like you and me don't need to have the pros and cons of either man explained. But your average American doesn't know and worst of all rarely cares, so they see one guy who looks kind of stupid and another who looks like he can't string a sentence together -rightly or wrongly- they're going to assume the stupid option is the safer option.
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u/Saffs15 2d ago
In addition to that, they think that despite being all powerful, when a president goes out of office they believe that everything that happens from then on is on the new guy in office. When in truth, a lot of bills have effects that reach years or decades down the road. I remember when Obama was president there were still bills going into effect that Reagan had passed.
The troop withdrawal is a prime example. Trump negotiated and set up the entire thing, and even got a massive start on it to the point that whoever was in office come February of 2020 wasn't gonna have an option to stop it or the way it was done. So, they blame Biden for how much of a cluster fuck it was, specifically using talking points for things that were forced to happen from Trumps administration even if Biden was the one in office at the time.
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u/0ftheriver 2d ago
I mean, Bidens performance was objectively terrible, and most outlets are avoiding declaring Trump “the winner”. But to answer your question: yes, there is at least one major aggregator, Gannett Press, that distributes talking points to most of the major news outlets around 4-5 am, but which can also include news sources outside of the United States. The outlets that don’t get the memo directly, reshare from those who do.
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u/honjuden 2d ago
It is probably because everyone expects Trump to be a rambling liar, but not as many people expected Biden to be an incoherent mess.
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u/DoctorDilettante 2d ago
Did you watch the debate? No one who watched can possibly say otherwise without being ridiculed unfortunately…
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u/Gotanyfunkopops 2d ago
Very demoralizing
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u/Spacebotzero 2d ago
It legit makes me feel depressed about the country.
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u/Turd_Nerd_Bird 2d ago
With this and all the shit the Supreme Court is ruling on while they can hide behind the debate coverage, it's not looking good for the country.
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u/Nukemind Texas 2d ago
Legit why once I finish this degree I’m moving abroad. Tried it out with a semester abroad (note: I’m almost 30 but in grad school). Loved it. First world nation. My GF is over there and had considered coming to America. But when we saw how well Trump was doing in the polls…
The fact he has even 10% support, not to mention how much he has, made us decide we didn’t want to be here. Too many racists, too many fascists. So finish up, accept the job abroad, and likely not come back.
Spent near 30 years here and actively campaigned for DNC but it’s just not feasible to remain.
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u/Kyrasthrowaway 2d ago
If the US falls to fascism, it will spread everywhere. No where is safe.
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u/vNocturnus 2d ago
Probably true, but for an individual currently in their 20s or older that simply wants to prioritize the best quality of life, safety, and happiness for themselves, it likely will take long enough that moving to an actually decent country is absolutely the better move - if you can do it. Sure, in 1-4 decades that nicer country might also be overrun and destroyed by fascists and crony capitalists, but that's better than 1-4 years.
Unless of course Trump round 2 leads directly to WW3, which is such a frighteningly strong possibility I'm actually kind of surprised that the only country in the world apparently trying to influence the US election is doing so in favor of Trump. In that case, the entire world is fucked within 1-4 months, never mind years or decades.
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u/Extinction-Entity 2d ago
I think Trump absolutely telegraphed his lust for WWIII right in the debate. He randomly accused Biden of dragging us that way, but people who've been paying attention for the past decade know that every accusation is a confession.
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u/chrisleesalmon Colorado 2d ago
Please at least stay to cast your vote. If people leave en masse, those who remain will have no chance.
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u/tigernike1 2d ago
I’m depressed now too.
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u/Other_Beat8859 2d ago
I was feeling pretty confident with all the polling coming out, but now I have that horrible feeling I had in 2016. I feel like unless he pulls a fucking 180 in the next debate, he's losing. He was just so passive. Every chance he had to get Trump on him, he just let pass. Also, great job to the fact checkers as they were fucking useless and might as well have not existed. It's this shit that makes me laugh when someone says CNN is pro Democrat.
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u/tigernike1 2d ago
Yeah, I used to laugh at people who said they’d leave in 2016. Now? I’m looking at jobs in Europe. I’m getting the fuck out of here if Project 2025 becomes policy. I’m not about to be locked up for being bisexual.
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u/ParallelMusic 2d ago
If Trump gets in, Europe might not be the best place to be either. Speaking as a European... a lot of people over here are very worried right now.
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u/tedivm 2d ago
Even without Trump, I feel like Europe has it's own growing right wing fascism issues to deal with.
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u/zeptillian 2d ago
It seems like the whole world is being squeezed economically so that it becomes more authoritarian right now.
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u/Spare_Substance5003 2d ago
To be fair. When the Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independence, did they really think we would make it this far? We're playing with house money at this point.
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u/dispelhope 2d ago
Benjamin Franklin did say to ms powell, "a Republic, if you can keep it."
which is less of, those idiot founders
and more of
This is what we left you, now it's up to the rest of you if it stays or goes away.
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u/TheSavageDonut 2d ago
We're playing with house money at this point.
We almost lost the nation in the 1860's -- but we are supposed to have progressed and "modernized" to the point that our nation's existence shouldn't be questioned anymore.
However, there are many Far Right politicians in Congress who don't believe in representative democracy and are trying to work toward a Theological Dictator for Life model of governance.
The old GOP beliefs in free market capitalism and limited Federal Government seem like relic ideas from an America that no longer exists (cheap gas, cheap houses, cheap food).
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u/Androidgenus 2d ago
Let’s be real, a lot of republicans are still fighting for the confederacy. They fly their damn flag
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u/Mysterious-Wasabi103 2d ago
Freedom isn't free. Our founding fathers probably never anticipated corporate propaganda networks to the level we see nowadays. Misinformation has historically always existed, but what happens when the truth is hidden behind a paywall and the American public doesn't have the will to find it? People want to be lied to.
When I was a kid in the 90s, people spoke about how "freedom comes with a price" and I'll be damned if that wasn't accurate. People have to wake up everyday wanting to put the values of our country before their own selfish interests, but thanks to propaganda at least a third of Americans now think we'd be better off under a dictator so they don't have to deal with opposing beliefs.
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u/ratchetryda92 2d ago
Assuming they have knowledge of any kind of history yes I suspect they thought this would go for awhile..
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u/harp011 2d ago
They expected us to be rewriting the Constitution every couple decades, and warned us that democracy is incredibly fragile.
I think if you told any of them that the country survived for 250 years they would be thrilled. If you showed them our politics today they’d be horrified. Madison and Washington suggested a lot of this was possible in their writing and letters, mostly in the context of “yeah democracy is great but it’ll collapse into a horrible mess if people let x,y & z happen.” Lo and behold x,y & z all became fundamental parts of our national politics.
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u/PrinceCastanzaCapone 2d ago
Yea the experiment failed. This isn’t even a democracy. It is clearly not by the people, for the people, or we would have taxed the rich a long time ago. It is for the rich, by the rich, at the cost of the rest.
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u/harp011 2d ago
I think that’s a little oversimplified and a-historical as well.
When Jefferson- an enslaver- went to draft parts of the Declaration of Independence, he recognized that there was brutal hypocrisy embedded in it. He knew that the way they were building the government was immoral and not in line with the values that these documents espoused. He believed that these values were aspirational, and that the real experiment of democracy was seeing if the USA grew into a more moral society over time. It’s hard to argue that in many ways, the USA is as close to living up to the constitution as it literally ever has been.
We talk about the experiment being a failure because anti-democratic fascists have captured the system….but this isn’t the first time it’s been like that in the USA. A century ago, the Nazis were studying US segregation laws and lynchings as the model for their government. Half a century ago we were toppling democratic governments and starting genocides because fuckin banana salesmen asked the cia to.
We also extended the right to vote, created a more equal society for minorities and supported decolonization and national sovereignty for others.
The terrifying and inescapable thing about the American experiment is that it’s ongoing, and that our nation has sat on a knifes edge between being an open society and a fascist horror show for its literal entire history.
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u/cspruce89 I voted 2d ago
The American Revolution was not a revolution of the masses, but a revolt of the upper class. It was people with power attempting to gain more power from the only people above them in the pecking order. They still used the lower class to fight their war, obviously, but from its foundation it was designed to secure the power of those at the top. Hence why universal suffrage was not in it from the get-go.
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u/Less_Rutabaga2316 2d ago
But corporations are people /s
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u/Actual__Wizard 2d ago
The thing is: They screwed up with those decisions because other people can incorporate and play that game too. Things are slowly heading that direction because they created space for a lot more people to dump money into politics, not just more money from a handful of people. I know they think that the Citizen's United decision was a good one, but it will blow up in their faces, it's just going to take awhile.
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u/BigNorseWolf 2d ago
How exactly do you think the rich people that wrote the constitution and allowed the state government to apoint the senate wanted it to work?
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u/xotyona 2d ago
"The question Whether one generation of men has a right to bind another, seems never to have been started either on this or our side of the water… (But) between society and society, or generation and generation there is no municipal obligation, no umpire but the law of nature. We seem not to have perceived that, by the law of nature, one generation is to another as one independant nation to another…
On similar ground it may be proved that no society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation…
Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the end of 19. years. If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force and not of right."
- Thomas Jefferson
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u/microcosmic5447 2d ago
One thing that has strangely helped me stress less about the situation (over the past 5ish years) is remembering that there's no correct system. There's not a utopia around the corner that our opponents are blocking, because we're just squishy biological organisms and why would we ever think there was a right way to do anything? There's just people, and the shit we did yesterday, and the shit we're gonna do tomorrow.
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u/IdkAbtAllThat 2d ago
There's no perfect system. But there are definitely some absolutely horrible ones. And we're heading straight towards one of them.
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u/Teardrith 2d ago
The problem is we are also kind of the house in modern politics. If we go bankrupt gambling our shit away (to keep with the metaphor) a lot more than just us will feel that pain.
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u/CaptainNoBoat 2d ago
Yeah, there's no great way to sugarcoat it. I'm certainly not going to today.
And you'll see people here echo this sentiment: "well it's a no-brainer decision between an old guy and a threat to democracy. Obvious choice to me" etc,
but.. That's the thing - the problem isn't people who follow politics and make reasoned decisions about the widespread consequences our institutions and policies will face. Although we should be spreading that message as much as we can.
It's the millions of Americans who vote for very simple reasons, or who don't vote at all. Especially in a race that could easily be decided by a few thousand votes in a few states.
It's not even whether Biden or his administration could do the job. It's about the campaign. And by all metrics a campaign that is already much more perilous than 2020.
This isn't to say Biden definitely needs to drop out, nor that anyone needs to panic. I don't know what the answer is this late in the campaign. But I think we're firmly in "having a conversation before the convention" territory if Biden is the best way forward to keep Trump out of office.
I'm just not sure, and hindsight is 20/20 - but I'd hate for us all to look back some day after hand-waving concerns away and say we were wrong. It needs to at least be discussed.
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u/Bobothemd 2d ago
He needs to have a 'health issue' and step aside asap. Trump is going to trounce him with his lies, which Biden is too enfeebled to respond to.
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u/dickpierce69 Illinois 2d ago
The big thing I’m seeing and hearing from others is just the optics of Biden. Sure, he’s better on policy. That’s not even a question. But when you’re that slow and are stumbling over your words, it puts out a perceived weakness. For far too many people, politics are more optics than policy. And at this point, that is Biden’s downfall.
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u/GeoLaser 2d ago
He would not win any other election in history looking like this, why the hell is he trying to do this one?
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u/dickpierce69 Illinois 2d ago
He is stubborn. Ego. Pride. That much faith in himself. Who knows? I can’t, in good faith, stand by and play the game anymore.
The system is broken when two candidates like these can win their party’s nomination under the guise of “stopping the other guy”. We shouldn’t have to settle for a garbage can because the other side put out a dumpster.
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u/Robzilla_the_turd 2d ago
All I know is that if I'd gone to see the debate live and I needed a ride to my hotel 20 minutes away afterwards would I trust that guy to drive me and my family there? No f'ing way! That said, I'll vote for a tuna fish sandwich over Trump if that's my only choice.
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u/LegDayDE 2d ago
Add to this the series of depressing SCOTUS rulings this week too
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u/Ok_Abrocoma_2805 2d ago
Yes. If you had told me in 2020 we’d be voting between literally the exact same two men again, I’d laugh in your face. But that’s what’s happening and it’s horrible. Biden and the DNC have made no sort of succession plan, no consideration that “maybe Biden should be a bridge candidate to end Trump and then we’ll plan ahead after Biden pulls us out of crisis.”
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u/YallMindIfIJoin Arkansas 2d ago
So much so that I’m starting to truly believe that we deserve whatever happens next.
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u/Icy-Cod1405 2d ago
Then the SC ended the Federal Governments ability to function while we were distracted.
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u/xlinkedx Arizona 2d ago
Lmao, as if we could do anything about it anyway. They could live broadcast from their chambers and we would just have to sit there and watch.
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u/Icy-Cod1405 2d ago
No but they want distractions. You can't protest outside their houses because they said it's illegal.
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u/QanonQuinoa 2d ago
If yall don’t think marriage equality is going back to the states next, you’re not paying attention.
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u/Icy-Cod1405 2d ago
That is the least of our worries tbh. Culture war has always been a distraction. They are effectively ending federal regulation en mass and trowing it to the lower extremely conservative courts. Education, SEC, IRS, medicare, the ACA every single government program and agency is affected by this. Within months the government will be unable to function.
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u/professorwormb0g 2d ago
I hate to say it but I agree. Not that I think marriage equality isn't a huge issue and that I would hate to see LGBT people lose their right to marry in red states. But the fabric of America isn't held together by gay marriage. Project 2025 aims to fire the entire civil service arm of the federal government and replace it with Trump loyalist. They want to decrease the size of the bureaucracy so much and then outsource its functions to private corporations. This will be absolutely devastating to every American and it's not like you can escape your state to avoid it like you could with abortion and gay marriage.
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u/thelingeringlead 2d ago
Not even trump loyalists, just loyalists to the cause. This didn't start wti htrump and it doesn't end with trump. Trump is the match meant to light the fuse and break down the walls so they can act on all the movements they've been making since the 60's. This has been the plan of the far right and christian conservative groups since the southern strategy was employed. Literally all over the country, but especially the midwest, the Quiverfull movement has been raising litters of children to raise in home school and send off to different centers. They go to learn about civil servitude and political office effecting policy, helping create a white christian fundamentalist nation. They're not even shy about it. The heritage foundation is an steady evolution of the same groups that are still mad about the civil war.
Trump wouldn't survive in the morally driven society they want to dominate over, and he and his buddies think they're smart enough to be bedfellows with this group to get what they want so they can strip the country bare and live in even more oppulence. The Hertiage foundation is looking very long term, while trump and his cronies are a short term means to an end.
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u/KarmaticArmageddon Missouri 2d ago
And they were only able to do so thanks to the 3 Justices Trump appointed.
Let's not make the same mistake this November.
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u/birdlawexpert11 2d ago
The Democratic Party should really have spent the last couple years building up a potential backup candidate. Getting the publicity and making them present and visible at big events. Hopefully Trumps image is tarnished enough but this should have been planned.
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u/Particular-Pen-4789 2d ago
kamala harris is arguably the worst VP pick of all time. for the above reasons mentioned
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u/naygor 2d ago edited 2d ago
Kamala wasnt picked because of how popular she was or how she campaigned--she dropped out early because she was polling terribly even in her home state.
They picked Kamala because she was the most influential and well-connected person to bring on board the California elite donor class to fund Biden's campaign.
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u/EnglishMobster California 2d ago
She played the game and dropped out before Super Tuesday so as to not dilute Biden's primary vote. Remember Biden was trailing until everyone else suddenly dropped out to prevent Sanders from winning.
Everyone who did as they were told and dropped out got rewarded.
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u/EpicurianBreeder 2d ago
Think of the kind of world we could have now if the DNC didn’t actively torpedo Bernie’s campaign. Twice.
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u/whatamidoing84 2d ago
Makes me fucking sad. I was a volunteer both times and we worked so hard, but it was never a fair fight. Particularly the second time around, we had it in the fucking bag before the coordinated drop outs and endorsements by the moderates to get a cabinet position. Now Bernie is old af as well but as of today I believe he would kick Trump’s ass in a debate. A shame that we’ll never see it
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u/bananapeel 1d ago
The DNC would rather risk losing to a fascist twice than win with a progressive. Think about that.
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u/pandershrek 2d ago
I dunno why they don't let her out. I'm sure she's probably ruthless in comparison when debating.
Maybe they're really doubling down on the milquetoast approach
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u/bromanskei 2d ago
Well they let her out last night on CNN minutes after the debate & she looked so rushed/flustered, which I’m assuming was them scrambling to form some defense of what we saw. I’m pretty center of the road who leans left, I will never vote for Trump but as others said, it was just really depressing seeing Biden. Dude needs to be retired enjoying his family. God damn. I’m a lifelong AZ resident & had hopes Mark Kelly would get in the race, he could be our next McCain.
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u/eeeezypeezy New Jersey 2d ago
Yeah, there should have been a real primary process. The fact the party squashed that, despite all the legitimate concerns about Biden's ability to carry out a second term, is a real travesty. And it'll only look worse in hindsight if Biden can't win this election in November.
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u/Masta0nion 2d ago
America has been saying this for 8 years
For almost a decade, they’ve made it clear that they don’t particularly like either candidate. And now the media is worried? The Democratic Party is scrambling? Get out of here. They only have themselves to blame (although they will blame anyone and everyone else)
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u/somethingbreadbears Florida 2d ago
Might be wishful thinking but Pete fits that premise to a t. Very visible for Sec of Transportation.
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u/birdlawexpert11 2d ago
Agreed but he would never win the older dem vote. I can picture a lot of “I support lgbtq but am not sure about them being President” types of opinions
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u/MajesticBread9147 2d ago
Or the black vote, and he'd do even worse than Biden with leftists.
Like the dude spoken about nothing but one liners and vague plans on "returning to normalcy" when running for President. And his experience is being the mayor of the fourth largest city in Indiana.
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u/TintedApostle 2d ago
Yes agreed. Trump is a danger and Biden is aging out fast.
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u/Atlusfox 2d ago
You could tell Biden was getting frustrated with the debate. Partly because Trump is an ass, and because he was having a really hard time.
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u/Makachai 2d ago
It has to be infuriating to "debate" with an opponent that has utterly no morals, no concept of reality, and just floods the zone with conspiracy bullshit.
I'm not sure anyone could respond to the firehose of idiocy that was Trump last night.
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u/steveschoenberg 2d ago
We have been dumbed down by politicians. Someone quick-witted, like Jon Stewart or Jamie Raskin, would have shredded Trump in a debate.
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u/IdkAbtAllThat 2d ago
On the flip side for as bad as Biden looked, somehow Trump didn't capitalize nearly as much as he could have. A sharper person could have ended Biden's career right then and there.
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u/highgravityday2121 2d ago
Trum's comment " i dont know what he said and i dont think he know what he said" That was killer.
Unfortunately we need a quick-witted candiate. Biden has done good work but he's to slow, forgets the question, etc but he has good answers and a good though process on how to answer each question.
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u/funkbefgh 2d ago
But he said it in response to a coherent comment. There were several other times that would have been more appropriate.
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u/scuffedmyguccii 2d ago
I don’t think people realize that someone can shred trump and his voters will still vote for him. He literally CAN go down fifth avenue and shoot someone and people would rally for him to be released
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u/kakarot-3 2d ago
The issue isn’t convincing Trump voters to not vote for him, because they will. The issue is energizing the undecided voters to go to the polls. MAGA is going to vote regardless. Biden’s job is to convince the people willing to not vote to vote for him
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u/MudLOA California 2d ago
You don’t need someone of Jon Stewart caliber to wipe the floor. Pick an average person off the street would suffice.
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u/BKlounge93 2d ago
Every Biden debate I find myself wanting to scream answers for him, I really don’t think it’s that hard
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u/ccasey 2d ago
Trump was up there talking about executing babies after they were born and everyone acts like that didn’t happen because of the elderly abuse we saw from Biden’s team
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u/toiletpaperisempty 2d ago
It's a sad day when I feel like your average redditor with a hot take could strongly compete in a presidential debate.
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u/Sir_Hapstance 2d ago
Stewart says he “can’t believe this is real life” — now would be a more important time than ever for him (or someone like him) to put his money where his mouth is and stand up for consideration.
It’s well past due for us to have a progressive firebrand as the leading dem candidate. At the very least, Biden’s camp should be entertaining the idea of having serious discussions with potential replacements about stepping down to let some strong candidates give it a shot.
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u/IdkAbtAllThat 2d ago
The problem is the people who would be the best at the job don't want it. George Washington himself didn't want the job.
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u/Sir_Hapstance 2d ago
Looks like someone’s getting dragged, kicking and screaming, to the White House then. The greater good, Jon. The greater good.
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u/Friendly_Engineer_ 2d ago
Trumps shit was entirely predictable, and the Biden team apparently tried to load him up with facts and numbers that he mostly fumbled.
A successful strategy would be to simplify the rebuttals (simply state ‘what my opponent said is false’), then repeatedly hit on the big picture messages, not numerical statistics. Biden had a few decent responses, but it should have been like shooting fish in a barrel given how ridiculously unsupported and untrue the shit Trump said.
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u/inanimatus_conjurus California 2d ago
Trump has been spewing the exact same BS for years in exactly the same tone and manner of speaking.
I don't see why it's not possible to put together a team and get coached on how to deal with that effectively without completely breaking down.
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u/jdragon3 2d ago
he threw out the "millions of people crossing the border, many of them from prisons and mental institutions" line like 3 times last night and i was just laughing at the insanity. same garbage "theyre not sending their best" meme he has been spewing since 2016
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u/Powerful_Artist 2d ago
Ya he wished he was even 5-10 years younger so he could call trump out on his BS eloquently or at least effectively.
But he couldn't. Which means lies won the debate.
That's something conservatives are celebrating today. Which is very concerning. They want a president who lies and tells them what they want to hear..to be fair, most all presidents have done that in the modern era at least
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u/solariscalls 2d ago
Didn't watch it but already knew what the outcome would be. You can't "debate" against a person who just makes shit up. It's like trying to reason with crazy uncle Joe on Thanksgiving with everyone just staring at the dinner table .
At some point you just get frustrated and start to give up while crazy mofo still going at it.
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u/Classicman269 Ohio 2d ago
The debate rules where bad as well 2 minutes to answer a question and 1 minute to respond is near beauti pageant levels of short. Yeah we knew Trump did not care and that host would not reign him in. Biden being frustrated and not given time to get his thoughts together makes since. It feels like in general this debate was set up to make everyone look bad. God I hope the next one is better in general for all involved.
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u/Atlusfox 2d ago
Same, i agree with how it looked. Someone said the hosts were meant to fact check some live during the debate. Yet it really didn't happen. I don't know if that was actually part of the plan, but it was surely needed. I read the fact check done after. Looks like 90% of the bs was, no duh, Trump. While Biden exaggerated some things.
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u/sugarlessdeathbear 2d ago
They're both aging out fast, but at least Biden filled his admin with competent people.
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u/mechapoitier Florida 2d ago
People keep belaboring that point as if were Biden to die (oh no! What do we do?) there just wouldn’t be a president anymore, or at best implying that whichever mystery person somehow becomes president then would somehow be worse than an insurrection-leading felon who did an awful job in office and who now promises to be a vengeful dictator if we restore him to the presidency.
The choice remains obvious. It’s Biden, unless you’re one of those people pretending to be the adults in the room suggesting we replace a man, who routinely outpolls Trump, with an unknown person 3 1/2 months before people start voting.
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u/Phteven_j 2d ago
He's not really outpolling him lately - the 538 aggregates show Trump doing better by like less than a percent. Definitely not clear cut.
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u/DrNickRiviera8000 2d ago
Absolutely heartbreaking to watch. Trump clearly has no plans or ideas and just wants rattle off his regular list of grievances. Biden is too old for this and is going to RBG this whole thing.
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u/krabstarr 2d ago
Question: what would you do to make child care more affordable?
Trump: Responds to previous comments by Biden and rants about immigration.
Biden: Gives actual ideas on child care costs.
Moderator, to Trump: The question was about child care
Trump: Rants about how he's the best president and lies about Biden tax increases.
Why does it have to be like this??? 😭😭
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u/ttkciar 2d ago
and is going to RBG this whole thing
The Dems' best bet may be to play up this idea in the media, and run someone popular as Biden's VP, like Newsom perhaps.
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u/DrNickRiviera8000 2d ago
We’ll see. I have a feeling it will be the same Biden/Harris ticket and people are going to vote for Trump or stay at home.
Better move imo would be to call up someone like Newsom. He already runs our largest state economy by far and could do a better job point out Trump’s nonsense than either Biden or Harris.
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u/timmy242 2d ago
In the choice between an old man who surrounds himself with better people and an authoritarian liar who would see democracy undone, I'll choose the old man every time.
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u/sadelpenor Texas 2d ago
yep. its a really easy choice for me too.
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u/MrFishAndLoaves 2d ago edited 2d ago
It’s an easy choice for everyone on Reddit. But that’s not who we need to be worried about.
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u/Soren_Camus1905 2d ago
Which is shocking.
I feel like I'm looking down my nose at people, but how the fuck could any sane person not cast their vote for Biden?
Yeah, he's old and mentally gone.
But Trump has come out and said repeatedly that his only goal is retribution.
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u/Long-Sleep8608 2d ago
Maybe some haven’t completely thought through the consequences of various outcomes.
I don’t have a crystal ball to see the future, plus I’m something of a chucklehead if I’m being completely honest but I get a feeling like it’s going to be “I thought Trump was great until he decided to come after me and mine.”
Leopards ate my face sub, facepalm sub, that kind of thing. But again I would like to reiterate: I’m an idiot, so might be wrong.
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u/Pure-Rough-9650 2d ago
There's really three possible reasons why a moderate/centrist voter would vote for Trump over Biden, and for most of them it's probably a mix of all three for most of them.
They don't take trump's words at face value & don't believe that he's going to destroy american democracy. I mean, trump is known for just saying nonsense and liberals are known for panicking at everything, it's easy to see a lot of moderates taking this stance.
This is the big one. Price of living has gotten so high that they'll vote for Donald Trump because the price of living was much more manageable back during his term. If you're living paycheck to paycheck struggling to even feed yourself most days while keeping the lights on, all lofty issues like 'american democracy is being weakened' become utterly irrelevant.
Joe Biden looks extremely frail of health and a lot of moderates might think that a vote for a second Biden term isn't actually a vote for Biden due to his failing health, but actually a vote for Kamala (who's very unpopular), and they'd rather have Trump over Kamala.
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u/kypper 2d ago
For a lot of people it's now a choice between Trump and the couch - they just won't vote.
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u/dcbluestar Texas 2d ago
That’s kinda how we got Trump in the first place. People either disliked Hillary so much, or thought she had it in the bag, that they just didn’t vote. And now here we are. A timeline where the term “Trump loyalist” is actually a thing. 🙄
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u/HippoRun23 2d ago
But that’s not what this is about though. This is about the fucking undecided voters. And what did they think?
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u/7SirMixALot7 2d ago
Trump comes with Project 2025…which is always a curious thing to ask his supporters about as they never seem to know what it is or what they are actually voting for…
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u/JarthMader81 2d ago
Had to turn it off after 20 minutes. One rambling vs one lying. Not a good look for either.
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u/Myghost_too 2d ago
Same here. I've never in my life been "unable to watch" anything serious. Until last night. I couldn't watch it.
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u/BigMax 2d ago
Yeah, I was SO depressed after that. Before last night I had said "Biden is old, but who cares?"
Now I still 100% support and will vote for Biden, but I'm SO depressed that people are going to vote for the pile of human garbage just because Biden sounded so old.
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u/tophergraphy 2d ago
Moreso many people that are needed for a Trump defeat are going to protest vote against Biden or stay at home. This is awful.
That said, I still endorse voting for Biden, it's his cabinet that is getting shit done anyway, but fuck is it disheartening that this election is very losable on the optics of Biden being senile that cant be refuted in good faith.
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u/Sir_Penguin21 2d ago
The vote is soo close that minor efforts that depress the vote often decide the winner. It isn’t really who can motivate people to come out. It is who can prevent people from being apathetic and staying home. Biden just made the country feel depressed and increasing their apathy. The die hard are always going to vote, this was the loss for the edge cases.
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u/DemandZestyclose7145 2d ago
The Democrats only have themselves to blame. They had 4 fucking years to find a legitimate replacement for Biden but said, "nah, we are gonna stick with Biden" even though his approval ratings have been dropping each year. I've been predicting a Trump victory since last year. After last night this just confirmed it. I'm still voting Biden but Trump is going to win, and he was probably going to win even if Biden had a better showing. Once again the arrogance and stupidity of the DNC will bite them in the ass.
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u/deadsoulinside Pennsylvania 2d ago
I am just hoping that in 2028 both parties stop this stupid shit with pushing people that should be retired and sitting on a beach into the presidency.
We should not be having discussions for the last 8+ years about who is mentally fit enough to govern our nation. This should never have been the norm and yet, here we are with less than 5 months away locked into 2 candidates.
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u/surloc_dalnor 2d ago
Why the hell do we have these guys? How has it come this? This can't be the best we have.
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u/UNisopod 2d ago
It feels so bizarre to me that more people aren't talking about the fact that Trump directly admitted Putin told him that he wanted to invade Ukraine more than a year in advance? (unless he means to imply that he was having personal conversations with Vlad about such topics after leaving office, which would be its own crazy admission)
That feels like an absolutely huge bombshell to lay out there. Why would he keep that to himself? Was this before or after he was trying to withhold aid to them? How is this not bigger news?
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u/Javasndphotoclicks 2d ago
It’s scary that people are so infatuated with a narcissistic ass clown who talks more about himself than actually answering a question.
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u/Odys 2d ago
It's very cult like. The "anything He does is Perfect" thinking, the "MAGA" yells. The infinite manipulated information. It doesn't matter one bit whatever Trump says or does: his attitude does the work.
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u/jackleggjr 2d ago
Probably the only debate we get. Trump did what he set out to do, so now he'll just crow about how he destroyed Joe Biden and never agree to another debate. Maybe that's the silver lining to this shit show... maybe we finally move away from this useless "debate" format. If we want to put candidates side by side for contrast, we need to just have back to back town halls with each individual candidate, with moderators who will ask pointed questions and follow up. How is any of this a reliable measure for who can be a good president? "Can he look good? Can he stay on message in two-minute increments? Did he cough a lot?"
I'm not making excuses for Biden; he failed in every possible way last night and he blew a major opportunity. But now more than ever, it feels incredibly dumb to use hyped debates like this one as a primary means of pushing a message.
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u/GentleOmnicide 2d ago
They both already agreed to a second debate in September. I don’t know how you fix Biden in 3 months as this has been an ongoing issue for a couple years that everyone downplayed. Trump will only back out if Biden steps down.
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u/SkyriderRJM 2d ago
Man Russia sure as fuck won it though.
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u/BroHanzo 2d ago
He basically admitted to the fact that he was a Russia asset by touting the dream of the “GrEaT LeAdEr Of RuSSiA 🇷🇺, my friend”
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u/SkyriderRJM 2d ago
Watch for Netanyahu to start trying to steamroll Biden now too.
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u/subetenoinochi 2d ago
History will repeat itself until America uses a voting system that doesn't have vote splitting such as Approval Voting. The system America currently uses, plurality voting, is rife with pathological issues and is largely to blame for the decline in political candidates, the dominance of two major parties that never get anything done, and so on.
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u/Ecstatic-Marzipan77 2d ago
Democrats and Republicans proudly displaying the two BEST people for the job. We are so fucked.
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u/SockofBadKarma Maryland 2d ago
No, they're displaying the two candidates with the most collected momentum to get through the procedural hoops needed to be nominated for the job.
Which is a major difference.
There are a variety of people across the nation who certainly have the oratory, mental, and organizational skills to be a better day-to-day President than Biden, and obviously Trump. But they do not have enough national recognition, party loyalty, finances, political machines, and primary momentum to be the ones at the podiums. Biden is there by virtue of being the incumbent and a long-time party figure, and Trump is there by virtue of a cult of personality that compels party compliance. That doesn't mean anything in terms of them being "the best" people for the job, any more than the son of the CEO of a nepotistic company is "the best" replacement for the new CEO, or a woman bribing judges in a beauty contest and winning is "the best" contestant. There's a lot more that goes into power structures and contests than technical aptitude.
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u/balespur85 2d ago
Biden is good at some things, bad at others.
He's great at getting major bills passed. Probably the best legislative record since LBJ. He's also great at hiring people. His administration has been remarkably stable. His foreign policy moves have been remarkably successful (the untold story of his presidency so far, among many others).
He's terrible at using the bully pulpit to lead the country and generally a terrible communicator. Which means he cant create unity in the country. Thats bad and its why trump has a chance. He also will rely on staff maybe too much in a potential second term since he is slowed down by age.
Altogether he's a decent, flawed choice for president that deserves reelection. I won't be upset if he steps down, but I will rally for him until the moment that happens.
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u/Wonderful_Way_7389 2d ago
“I know I’m not a young man, to the state the obvious. Well, I know I don’t walk as easy as I used to, I don’t speak as smoothly as I used to, I don’t debate as well as I used to, but I know what I do know. I know how to tell the truth,” the president said. I know right from wrong. I know how to do this job. I know how to get things done. I know, like millions of Americans, I know, when you get knocked down, you get back up. Folks, I give you my word as a Biden, I would not be running again if I didn’t believe with all my heart and soul I can do this job. Because, quite frankly, the stakes are too high.
I'm with him
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u/BurnerAccountforAss 2d ago
The issue isn't so much right now as it is 3-4 years from now.
We all saw what happened last night. Joe was a far cry from his 2020 self, who was a far cry from his 2012 self to begin with.
I'm not convinced the man I saw debate last night will be able to dress himself in 2027.
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u/KaneIntent 2d ago
Yeah that’s the big question for me too that I’m surprised no one else is talking about. If he’s changed this much in the last 4 years what is he going to look like by the end of his second term during his last 6 months in office?
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u/Listening_Heads 2d ago
This is a multifaceted problem.
The president has WAY too much power. The fate of our country can’t be in the hands of a single person.
Two party system allows for far too much gaming of the system.
The job of President itself is so terrible that no one worth a damn wants to do it. The dozen or so people who keep running for President are like twisted inbred creatures who have been in the gross political cesspool too long.
The DNC and RNC are too powerful and take away much of the people’s power to choose.
The electoral college needs reformed. We’ll never live to see it abolished so it needs reformed for modern America.
Also Citizens United needs massive reforms.
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u/AttilaTheFun818 2d ago
I’m honestly having an existential crisis.
Biden is too old for the job. I’m voting for him anyway but I’m not happy about it.
Trump and the entire Republican Party have become the party of tyranny. The fact that approx half of the country supports him has made me lose all faith in the American people.
If I had the money to do so I’d take my fiancé and dogs and move to an island someplace. I want out.
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u/katzenpflanzen 2d ago
The fact that approx half of the country supports him has made me lose all faith in the American people
This is what nobody is mentioning in all its seriousness. It doesn't matter who is ever the candidate of whatever party, of who wins. Half of the nation wants tyranny. It's impossible to keep democracy without broad popular support. American democracy is coming to its end and that's a fact.
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u/user745786 2d ago
Worst debate moderators ever. Is CNN working for the Trump campaign?
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u/dickwheat 2d ago
Why is everyone just now realizing that the election would shape up just like this? A sore loser who can’t walk away and an old fuck who should also go home.
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u/Abstractpants 2d ago
I just can’t anymore guys. I’ll vote for Biden for sure, but other than that I think it’s time I move on from Reddit. After 11 years, it’s become a doom scroll nightmare, fueling my OCD and Depression to heights I never knew possible for me.
I’ll do my part and vote, I just can’t keep up anymore. I have to focus on my family, on myself. I am close to saving enough to leave Texas, so I’m going to put my head down and do that.
I hope y’all are all okay, mentally. I know I’m not.
Later y’all. Take care of yourselves.
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u/GagOnMacaque 2d ago
I looked at my wife and she took the words out of my mouth. "We are fucked."
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u/Deviouss 2d ago
It's eerily reminiscent of 2016.
People constantly downplayed Hillary's FBI investigation but then Comey's letter was later blamed for her loss. People have been constantly downplaying Biden's age and it's becoming extremely hard to ignore.
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u/Retro-96 2d ago
This is what happens when you try and gaslight people who bring you concerns about problems- the gas catches on fire and there’s an explosion.
democrats should have owned up to Biden’s decline ages ago and worked to replace him.
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u/Olfahrtur 2d ago
Piss off. Still not voting for the felon.
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u/Blackboard_Monitor Minnesota 2d ago
But it's not about people like you, it's the few voters that needed to be convinced and Biden failed miserably, hell Palin could have beat him last night.
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u/CinnamonToastFecks 2d ago
Biden could have been wheeled out on a gurney and I would not for a second dream of voting for an adjudicated rapist and convicted felon.
The idea that this is even a point of debate in our population is absurd.
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u/MickeyMgl 2d ago edited 2d ago
Since most people don't watch debates live, I propose (to any and all of the networks who air and re-air the debates in their entirety) that debates be re-aired with ON-SCREEN fact checks. Ala Pop-up Videos. Or just in a screen crawl.
Yes, live, it's up to the opposing candidates, and sometimes the moderators, but the electorate is best served and informed if they can get the truth at the first available opportunity. We won't have to go cross-referencing every item via google and online fact-checkers.
We need a better informed electorate. That's part of the problem. Biden was not up to the task of calling Trump out on his lies, but that doesn't mean that those lies don't still matter.
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u/GullibleInsurer 2d ago
For Trump to actually admit that he knew of Putin's dream to invade Ukraine..... and for his idiocy to actually think that Putin's respect for him is the one that held Russia back from invading Ukraine is so delusional, he thinks so highly of himself. It's more likely that when they met, Putin deduced how much of an idiot America's president is so he immediately moves to start war plans
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u/edwardthefirst 2d ago
Why am I seeing more headlines about Democrats panicking than quantifying how many lies Trump told to "win" the debate? Media is making this even worse than it should be.
The first and second amendments have become the bane of the Republic. Sure will be interesting to see how corporations and demagogues pervert the next couple
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u/smiama36 2d ago
Media lost the debate. Trump said Democrats murder babies in after birth abortions and the moderator said "thank you". Media failed America.
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u/commit10 2d ago
The greatest threat to democracy in America, and the DNC chooses to run a geriatric as opposition. Shame on them.
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u/Savitar17 2d ago
You can tell the DNC learned from RBG and Feinstein.
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u/fruitybrisket 2d ago
The DNC doesn't learn. They're still paying the price for screwing Bernie because "he's not a realistic candidate" and in turn created voter apathy for huge amount of fired-up young progressives last decade.
Trunp wasn't a realistic candidate and that worked out fine for the GOP though.
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u/Silvaria928 2d ago
They're still paying the price for screwing Bernie because "he's not a realistic candidate" and in turn created voter apathy for huge amount of fired-up young progressives last decade...Trunp wasn't a realistic candidate and that worked out fine for the GOP though.
Thank you.
As a former hardcore Bernie bro-ette, I have listened to people try and blame him for Trump winning in 2016 without understanding what you just said, that the DNC created an enormous amount of voter apathy by declaring that they didn't give a rat's a$$ who the voters wanted and shoved an unlikable candidate down our throats.
They continued this trend with shoving Biden down our throats four years later.
Last night after I turned off the debate, a Bernie video came across my YouTube feed. When I saw how much energy that man still has despite being a year older than Biden, I wanted to cry. He could have mopped the floor with Trump.
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u/Rich_Menu_9583 2d ago
DNC handing our democracy to a would-be dictator with this debate.
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u/PlasticHot7188 2d ago
is there any sub that’s actually moderate and not horribly fucking biased?
I hate this shit
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