r/unitedkingdom • u/PinkNews Verified Media Outlet • 3d ago
Keir Starmer says he doesn’t want schools teaching young people about transgender identities ...
https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/06/25/keir-starmer-trans-education-general-election-2024/1.9k
u/jmdg007 Liverpool 3d ago
Surely people realise Trans people aren't going to just go away by not mentioning them in school? I went to a Catholic school about 10 years ago where they never got mentioned once by teachers yet I know at least 2 people from my year who are Trans now.
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u/limeflavoured Hucknall 3d ago
Surely people realise Trans people aren't going to just go away by not mentioning them in school?
It's literally identical logic to that used for Sectuon 28. They think that by forcing schools to avoid mentioning it people will stop being trans. It's inhumane.
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u/Academic_Noise_5724 3d ago
And sex ed more generally. 'Don't teach the kids how to have sex = they won't have sex' has been shown time and time again to be a fallacy
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u/MattSR30 Canada 3d ago
It’s particularly fucking bonkers because we all naturally know how to have sex. We developed over hundreds of thousands of years to do pretty much exclusively that.
What we don’t know how to do is have sex safely. Whether that be pregnancy, disease, or even just consent. They should focus on keeping people safe and healthy rather than trying to stop something our squishy ape brains want us to do 24/7.
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u/Trips-Over-Tail 3d ago
Not strictly true. More than one doctor has had to advise to help a couple conceive because they weren't doing it right, or at all.
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u/OdinForce22 3d ago
So, you're telling me that early humans didn't instinctively have sex?
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u/Anandya 3d ago
A lot of sexual behaviour in humans is learned. That's why attractiveness and fashion changes with generations.
Late 90s JNCOs and frosted tips Anandya was considered good looking. If I rocked that look today? I think I would not...
And I have had one person at least in clinic try to get pregnant while their partner was in another country...
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u/Djorak Glasgow (French) 3d ago
To be fair, that's survivorship bias isn't it, the ones that couldn't figure it out didn't procreate.
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u/potpan0 Black Country 3d ago
And sex ed more generally. 'Don't teach the kids how to have sex = they won't have sex' has been shown time and time again to be a fallacy
Which, funnily enough, is also being increasingly pushed in the UK now too.
It's almost as if American hard-right money is flooding into the UK and using trans people as a wedge to promote broader social conservatism. If only someone could have predicted this...
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u/Academic_Noise_5724 3d ago
I'm Irish originally and when there was a referendum to legalise abortion in 2018 it was strongly suspected that the anti-abortion campaign was being partly funded by US evangelicals
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u/potpan0 Black Country 3d ago
A lot of the anti-LGBT push in Africa too is funded by American money.
Growth in inequality always fuels the far-right, both because the rich (who are much more favourable to the far-right) have more money to throw at these causes, and because the poor are much more likely to be looking for radical solutions to their problems.
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u/DracoLunaris 3d ago
add in the situation where the rich, knowing the poor are looking for radical solutions to the problems they themselves are causing/benefiting from, will expend some of their wealth to ensure the poor don't find actual solutions and are instead drawn into infighting causing scapegoating and you've got the full picture.
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u/devolute Sheffield, South Yorks 3d ago
I wonder if some of the Russian money comes via the American hard-right or just gets to us directly?
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u/potpan0 Black Country 3d ago
Almost certainly. Although I think sometimes people are a bit too quick to blame Russia when there are plenty of home-grown American and British billionaires who have repugnant views of their own and are willing to use 'their' wealth (i.e. the wealth they've exploited from labour) to push them.
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u/Cast_Me-Aside Yorkshire 3d ago
Not too quick to blame Russians in any sense.
Much, much too slow, in fact. Most people were largely unaware of the degree of Russian influence on our politics until the invasion of Ukraine. Most people still are, come to that.
Even though he's disgraced and out of politics, most people are blissfully ignorant that a few weeks after the Salisbury poisonings the Foreign Secretary buggered off -- without his security detail -- to a party at a Russian oligarch's castle in Perugia. A party where Rory Stewart said one of the selling points would be that there were girls there! Said oligarch's son is now in the House of Lords.
Most people are completely oblivious of the (sadly not really infamous ladies night photograph) or the amounts of money channelled into politics by oligarchs' wives.
The rest are just as repugnant and deserve equal attention, but it should be much, much more across the board.
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u/snippity_snip 3d ago
The entirety of my time at school was under Section 28. Never learned that other people like me existed, so I didn’t know I could have a normal happy life and relationships like everybody else.
Still grew up to be gay af. I just got to be depressed and suicidal all the way through school. So I guess that was a win to the tories? 🤷
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u/cloche_du_fromage 3d ago
I went roo school way before section 28 and was fully aware of gay people existing.
For a couple of years there was also a commonly held belief it was contagious...
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u/Anandya 3d ago
That's predicated on the argument that I can turn anyone gay through the power of "education and debate".
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u/TropicalGoth77 3d ago
The counter argument would be that its (at least partially) a social contagion type thing in which teenagers / young people going through the mental challenges of puberty are seeing transitioning as an answer to confusion and discomfort about changes in their body. Thus not mentioning it would reduce the amount of young people seeing that as the appropriate response to these feelings.
Whether you agree or not with this idea is up to debate but thats the counter point.
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u/CitrusRabborts 3d ago
But it's the same when considering if you're gay or not. Some people experiment and decide it's not for them. We shouldn't be bothered if teenagers socially transition and then decide it's not for them
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u/ItsFuckingScience 3d ago
Socially transitioning is not equivalent to kissing a boy and deciding it’s not actually for you
Getting yourself, your peers, teachers to address and support you as a new person and identity, persevering against potential pushback from parents, family or anyone suggesting it could “be a phase” etc is not easily psychologically reversible
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u/Broccoli--Enthusiast 3d ago
But who cares if people want to socially transition ? Why is it a big deal? They aren't becoming a new person, they are using a name they are more comfortable with, maybe wearing different clothes. They are still the same person. Just being more public about how they feel.
I work with a trans person, one day Stacey became Hunter, she became he
It did not affect me one but, other than a few slips everyone had it down within a few weeks.
It literally doesn't harm or affect you in the slightest. Just let people be happy for fuck sake.
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u/ItsFuckingScience 3d ago
Because the Cass Review stated socially transitioning should be viewed as a psychological / medical intervention because it
“may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning and longer term outcomes”
So it is a big deal. I’m supportive of trans people finding happiness and comfortable in their identity but this is a topic of research which is still quite new and developing which there isn’t a significant amount of evidence for.
And suggesting it’s completely fine and being totally fine with school children to socially transition without any medical / psychological oversight is wrong in my opinion.
That said, if one of my friends or colleagues said they were trans and wanted me to call them by x new name or use him/her or them instead I’d be totally fine with doing it. No issue at all.
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u/Wuffles70 3d ago
The Cass Report also omitted studies from the review on the basis that they weren't double blind studies.
In pediatric medicine.
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u/queenieofrandom 3d ago
The cass review is full of flaws though
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u/ItsFuckingScience 3d ago
It was well received by the British psychological society, Royal college of psychiatrists, and the royal college of paediatrics and child health
It was led by a consultant paediatrician and former president of royal college of paediatrics and child health
What did you find flawed with it? I think it’s the best evidenced based review out there?
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u/Grey_Belkin 3d ago
is not easily psychologically reversible
Neither is growing up ashamed and scared to tell anyone you're trans, with the only time you ever hear about trans people existing being when they're being ridiculed and demonised.
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u/potpan0 Black Country 3d ago
We've got to the point now where people are arguing that being respectful towards children is bad for them, while making them fearful of their own feelings and emotions is good for them. Actual insanity.
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u/Grey_Belkin 3d ago
Basically any potential damage to cis people is magnified 1000 times, and any real, already happening damage to trans people is brushed off as irrelevant.
They're more worried about a cis kid being embarrassed by having mistakenly thought they might be trans than about all the trans kids being constantly bombarded with anti-trans messages from politicians and public figures telling them they shouldn't exist.
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u/potpan0 Black Country 3d ago
They're more worried about a cis kid being embarrassed by having thought they might be trans
Rather they're worried about themselves being embarrassed by having to think about their child coming out as trans, or at least their child not sharing the same nasty views as them.
That's what a lot of this boils down to, people who can theoretically tolerate gay people or trans people existing in abstract, but are terrified of the idea that their own child won't just be a mirror image of themselves. Because fundamentally they view their child as an accessory rather than an independent human being.
You see this in a lot of sex education stuff too. When you try and explain to people that it's important to teach young people about sex and relationships so that they know if someone close to them is trying to be inappropriate with them, they go 'well I would never groom my child!' and take it as a personal insult. It's always about their own feelings rather than their children's wellbeing.
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u/AJFierce 3d ago
This is an anti-trans line of attack.
Asking people to use a different name for you and different pronouns for you is what social transitioning is, and it is reversible and changeable.
It IS unlikely you want to do that unless you're pretty sure you want to transition already. Pushing back against people insisting it's just a phase is also solved by... not insisting it's just a phase. A sort of unbothered acceptance is the best way to give a kid a chance to explore what it feels like to be called her instead of him, or Kevin instead of Kaylee, without forcing them into a defensive posture.
The idea that trying out a new name and new pronouns is in itself a sort of cognitohazard is an anti-trans line of attack, and whether you're repeating it without knowing it or actively using it it's important people reading this see it identified as such.
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u/Darq_At 3d ago
A sort of unbothered acceptance is the best way to give a kid a chance to explore what it feels like to be called her instead of him, or Kevin instead of Kaylee, without forcing them into a defensive posture.
Exactly. All these people saying "we must protect our children from this thing by telling them it is bad and wrong".
Have they ever met a child?! I can think of no way to make something sound cooler than to insist that it's bad.
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u/hobo_fapstronaut 3d ago
Best way to truly test your child's commitment to a trans identity. 100% support bordering on parental cringe. If the kid still commits after their parents tell them it's "the coolest thing ever totally lit skibbidi toilet yo" then that identity is absolutely locked in.
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u/regretfullyjafar 3d ago
What is your proof that this is not “psychologically reversible”?
The argument from anti-trans activists changed from “people shouldn’t transition young because you can’t reverse the medical changes” to “you can’t reverse social transitioning!” pretty quickly.
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u/potpan0 Black Country 3d ago
The argument from anti-trans activists changed from “people shouldn’t transition young because you can’t reverse the medical changes” to “you can’t reverse social transitioning!” pretty quickly.
It's called a Motte-and-bailey argument, and you see transphobes use it a lot.
They start off with arguments which they think are easier to defend (the Motte): 'we only want fairness in sports', 'we don't want children having permanent surgeries', 'we just want a debate'. They're all arguments which, on their own, are difficult to argue against.
But, when pushed, it turns out their actual beliefs are much wider and less easy to defend than that (the Bailey), and often boil down to a broader rejection of trans people being accepted in society.
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u/Basteir 3d ago
I think you must have that reversed because you'd attack the easy to attack bailey before you assault the motte.
I think someone retreats to the motte after being challemged and losing their bailey.
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u/lem0nhe4d 3d ago
I mean is it up for debate? Their isn't a single study showing evidence being trans is a social contagion. Surely the group claiming evidence bases must be extremely high before any change is made will want evidence first? /S
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u/barrio-libre Scotland 3d ago
But it’s a ridiculous argument, usually made by the same people who claim that people being trans is a new phenomenon. Trans people have always existed and always will, whether you take the time to educate children about the realities of it or not.
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u/360Saturn 3d ago
Not to call you out specifically but the very concept of a 'social contagion' sounds like something the kind of person that believed Satanists were recruiting in schools or 5G was kind controlling people through brainwaves would come up with.
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u/AlDente 3d ago
Except fashion, language, dialect, sub cultures, and much more already work in this way. We are a deeply social species.
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u/lem0nhe4d 3d ago
And tons of homophobes claimed being gay was a social contagion and we ended up with section 28 which didn't reduce the amount of gay people it just made gay kids miserable.
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u/imashination 3d ago
A nearby school a few years ago had a situation where more than half of the girls in the school had started cutting themselves with razor blades or similar. It got to the point that they had to go around all the nearby shops and ask the owners to flat-out not sell any sharp objects to any school aged children.
They were cutting themselves because their friends were cutting themselves. And keep in mind, it was just this single school, all others in the same socio economic area had no problems at all. Broadly when asked why they did it, the answer was some general description of being sad. The socially accepted solution in this school to being sad become self harm.
What words would you use to describe such a thing? social contagion sounds like a fairly accurate description.
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u/DonVergasPHD 3d ago
It's very much a thing with suicides, mass shootings and self-harm in general.
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u/Archistotle England 3d ago edited 3d ago
Oh yeah, because if there’s one thing teenagers want more than anything else, it’s MORE puberty.
They’d be jumping at the chance to go through all those medical procedures and take on all that social stigma if they only knew they could keep being an awkward pimply fuck for a few years more.
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u/Darq_At 3d ago
At some point though, truth matters, not just abstract sides in a debate. Being trans is not a social contagion, so they can make as many arguments as they like off of that predicate, but none of them are sound.
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u/Kvetch__22 3d ago edited 3d ago
Is it really "up for debate" though? We've heard for years that being trans is some hip fad and that there are thousands of kids being pressured/forced into changing their gender identities. But when you look at who is actually out there identifying as trans you get a ton of people who would never reconsider their decision and a small group of folks who experimented with being trans and found out it wasn't for them, or were pressured out of being trans more than they were ever pressured into it.
"Social contagion" is something that came from hack fraud right wing pseuso intellectuals. There isn't anything scientific to back it up other than their personal opinion that too many people are trans.
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u/Aflyingmongoose 3d ago edited 3d ago
Transphobes will have you believe that schools are trying to convert the children.
Not teaching this in schools will simply increase ignorance about the subject, and increase hatred through misunderstanding.
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u/djshadesuk 3d ago
Not forgetting depression and suicide of those that know they're different but can't put a name to it and feel like they're all alone, especially with said hatred/misunderstanding.
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u/JamesCDiamond 3d ago
I studied English in school from 4 to 18 and I’m English, so clearly my schools converted me!
It’s such daft logic; Kids need to hear that people are different. It’s best to hear that in school, with a neutral adult telling them that different doesn’t mean wrong, it just means different. Whether ‘different’ means nationality, gender, sexuality, language, religious belief… it shouldn’t matter. It bothers me that such a simple message is being twisted - just another moral panic over how a small number of people are living their lives.
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u/Aiyon 3d ago
I had no idea trans people existed till I went to uni. All it achieved was making me more depressed because I didn't know why i was so miserable once puberty took effect.
I lost out on years of doing something about it, all because it was hidden from me.
It doesn't stop people being trans, it just makes trans people suffer. And that's the point
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u/_arthur_ 3d ago
It doesn't stop people being trans, it just makes trans people suffer. And that's the point
You can't turn cis kids trans. You can't turn trans kids into cis kids, but you can turn them into dead trans kids. As much as I dislike children that seems like a sub-optimal choice.
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u/BlackSpinedPlinketto 3d ago
I’m glad you figured it out, and I’m glad trans people exist. I’m not trans, but I think it’s good to learn about all people in society.
I thought the tories being out would end this right wing bigotry, I now can’t, and will not, vote for Kier in good conscience and I’d no idea he was like this.
Maybe school isn’t the place to learn anyway, tv does more raising us than school lol
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u/Aiyon 3d ago
Maybe school isn’t the place to learn anyway
If school doesn't teach us about it, then it enables bigoted parents to deliberately keep their child from learning about it and suppress that aspect of themself. Whether that's sexuality, gender identity etc.
It's similar to how actually, it is worthwhile teaching kids who aren't old enough to have sex yet, about sex and boundaries, because it can help them realise if they're being abused.
how we teach it is different, but "trans people exist" and "some people are gay/bi/ace/etc" isn't harmful, and is worth knowing
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u/octohussy Newcastle upon Tyne 3d ago
I find it really odd that they actively fight against teaching about it. Gender identity is protected by the Equality Act 2010, surely schools should be informing students about it so that they’re not going to go out and breach the law when they get jobs?
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u/Extremely_Original 3d ago
Not to meantion all of this is after the recent headlines showing trans suicide deaths in the UK are absolutely rocketing. Lots of real classy folk in this thread.
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u/octohussy Newcastle upon Tyne 3d ago
I totally agree. Labour are running an anti-abortion and anti-LGBTQ+ candidate (Glindon) in my constituency, so I’m not too happy about the fact they’re pretending that they’re taking this stance to pretend that they’re doing this to protect “women’s rights”.
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u/Chaoslava 3d ago
It’s probably to reduce the “fad” aspect of it in schools.
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u/lem0nhe4d 3d ago
Yeah it's so cool to get bullied and marganlised in school.
I'm sure section 28 will work this time.
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u/Darq_At 3d ago
It’s probably to reduce the “fad” aspect of it in schools.
Being trans is not a fad.
But if it were, I could not imagine a faster way to make it seem more appealing to children than to try and ban it.
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u/Kingsworth Lincolnshire 3d ago
Unfortunately, for a lot of people it absolutely is.
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u/notleave_eu 3d ago
Trans and tolerance for all generally needs to be addressed as a whole, though what I don’t understand currently is why something that affects around 0.5% of the population taking over such a high percentage of the news cycles.
This doesn’t affect 99.5% of the population of England and Wales but it’s constant news. There are more people who are homeless, or children living in poverty than there are trans people. A call every 30 seconds is made to the police regarding domestic violence which affects 1 in 5 of everyone (male or female) during our lifetime.
I’m not saying ignore it, or not address it, I just that I don’t understand why the other issues are pushed aside for this.
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u/InbredBog 3d ago
It gets clicks and engagement, that’s about it, if people became more involved in the things they think are important to them rather than being hooked on rage bait the algorithms would self correct.
We are too stupid for that unfortunately.
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u/___a1b1 3d ago
This very article demonstrates that.
Starmers actual comments (found in the article) don't match the headline. Despite Pink News being known for posting bullshit, it's got hundreds rage posting on this sub today.
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u/Plugged_in_Baby 3d ago
Had to scroll way too far down to find this comment. What he actually said is that he doesn’t want things to be taught “in an ideological way”. Which should be uncontroversial, but here we go.
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u/___a1b1 3d ago
Pink news thrives on rage bait and their audience absolutely loves it. They love this notion of persecution and politicians out to get their team.
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u/OwlsParliament 3d ago
"in an idealogical way" is meaningless though. To some people just mentioning it is idealogical.
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u/crh23 3d ago
Disagree - it's a pretty common tactic for the right wing to discredit anything the don't like (gay relationships, trans people, etc.) as "ideology", so this could easily be a pretext to a significant restriction on how children can be taught about gender and sexuality.
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u/indoubitabley 3d ago edited 3d ago
“I think we need to complete the consultation process and make sure that there is guidance that is age appropriate".
“That is helpful for teachers and has at its heart the safeguarding of children.”
"Also, I don't care if Dumbledore was packing a cock like a toddler holding an apple, or he had a minge like a badly packed kebab, it's all fun in the dark baby"
If pinknews can make up a quote from the article they published, then so can I, guess which one is mine!
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u/Mitchverr 3d ago
Because its about making an enemy to fear for tory voters originally, and now its taken on a life of its own and those that made it an issue cant control it, nor are they going to win, so everyone has to deal with it.
Its really sad when you consider how trans rights were advnacing even under PM May, and parilament was openly respecting and supporting the trans community, then we got to the point of the tories losing, looking for anyone to kick down at and picking the trans community becuase its "working in the US" and every week you got Sunak coming in with anti-trans jokes/commentary at PMQs supported by right wing media because to them, patriotism is supporting the tories, not protecting fellow Brits from an abusive government power.
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u/Incident_Electron 3d ago
I had a look at the Times website yesterday and there were a plethora of articles on the topic.
It the political Right who are driving this, attempting to create division with a phony moral panic and culture war.
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u/TinyTiger1234 3d ago
Since 2020 there have been more articles written about trans people than there are trans people in the uk
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u/KTKitten Yorkshire 3d ago
Well the 0.5% part is what makes us so great as a target for a moral panic. It’s really hard to whip up a moral panic around people you know and respect, but people you don’t know and don’t know much about? They’re so easy to turn into demons in people’s minds, and every moment spent whipping up fear of innocent people is a moment they don’t have to spend making it obvious that they don’t have workable solutions.
What really bugs me though is that it’s a failure state for a sitting government to get bogged down in culture wars like this… the Tories have turned to this because they have no solutions for the state they’ve got us into, but why the hell is Starmer’s Labour party using it as a sales pitch? That they don’t just point out the vapidity of the whole thing fills me with despair tbh.
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u/turbo_dude 3d ago edited 3d ago
How accurate is that figure? Just thinking how many people I see in a typical day and how many are 'any category of anything' and this seems wildly high.
In an update on Wednesday, the Office for National Statistics said there were “patterns in the data consistent with some respondents not interpreting the question as we had intended”.
The proportion of people who had a different main language than English and who said they were trans was four times higher than the 0.4% of the population with English as their main language (or English or Welsh in Wales).
Adults with no educational qualifications were more likely to identify as trans than university graduates, while black and Asian people were more likely to identify as trans than white people, the findings released this year showed.
from the grauniad
that last para...can't be that it's linked to ethnicity or education level
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u/ThatChap United Kingdom 3d ago
It's a wedge issue, so it's been driven and frothed up - and the loudest voices ona controversial issue are heard elsewhere too.
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u/ChKOzone_ 3d ago
It’s just smoke and mirrors. Why discuss the housing and energy crisis destroying our once prosperous middle class when you can just attack a fringe minority minding their own business and dress it up as a culture war that's really at work!
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u/DangerousAd3347 3d ago
I don’t get it either, all the millions of issues in the country people being abused, not getting proper care they need, homeless etc but the thing everyone cares about is someone’s gender identity. There’s millions of important things that we can debate if should be taught in schools or not why is this the thing everyone’s obsessed about ?
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u/External-Piccolo-626 3d ago
Because there’s a massive agenda to push this issue that’s why. From who or where we don’t know yet, but it’s very worrying.
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u/Khenir East Sussex 3d ago
It makes a certain sub-section of the population incredibly mad that someone might do something they don’t like and which doesn’t affect them in any way shape or form.
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u/kutuup1989 3d ago
Personally, it's because at least one of that 0.5% is a close friend and I don't appreciate them being treated like they're freaks or less than human through exclusion in educating children about the world they will grow up in.
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u/Prownilo 3d ago
Issue is complex but my take away from it is you have one side saying we should tolerate and allow people to be who they are.
On the other you have a side where the existence of transgender people upset an entire applecart, suddenly a relatively simple male/female system had to be thrown out, the bathrooms need to change, the sports teams need to adapt, you have to now specify your pronouns and learn other people's. And for some, having to bend over backwards for .5% of the population is asking too much. Having to restructure society for such a small amount of people.
There are of course people who just don't like trans people as people and they I think are probably the loudest, but for the rest it's simply a matter of not wanting to change.
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u/YeonneGreene 3d ago
Did the bathrooms need to change? Did the sports teams have to adapt? Did people need to go out of their way to specify pronouns and use other people's identifiers?
It really looks to me like every one of those issues was overblown and driven by the reactionaries desperately seeking a foothold to tear us down. Is it nice if there's a gender-neutral toilet? Yeah, but I don't really care enough to even petition for one and I've been using the facilities of my identified gender without issue. Sports? We had 20 years of trans people in sports with no issues, suddenly there's an issue. Wrong pronouns? I just lightly correct and move on, I'm not raising a stink and I sure don't care if somebody doesn't specify anything.
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u/Zaruz 3d ago
As someone who's really rather neutral on the debate, what you've described is what I've seen from most of the trans community. Most of the things people are raving mad about being changed for the "woke brigade" are things that the (majority of) the trans community never asked for.
Just made up scaremongering for political gain.
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u/thatgermansnail 3d ago
I honestly don't understand the restructuring society or bending over backwards people.
The bathrooms don't need to be restructured or changed because trans people have existed and used the bathroom of their choice for a very very long time. These people had nothing to say about the 2010 Equality Act, but now that the media has decided that trans people are the next target/scapegoat, people are suddenly concerned about something that is literally just going to stay exactly the same as it always has been.
I do think half of it does come down to your latter point though, the fear of change. People are terrified of change and part of that is about not being able to rely 100% on automated assumptions, which is easier.
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u/ChefExcellence Hull 3d ago
the bathrooms need to change
Trans people have been using the bathrooms of their identified gender, without issue, for decades. If anything the people trying to force it to change are the gender criticals.
the sports teams need to adapt
Again, something they've been doing for decades. The Olympics started to think about how to include trans people back in 2003. Individual sporting bodies are best placed to make decisions around what restrictions should apply when it comes to trans people, and they're empowered to make those decisions.
you have to now specify your pronouns and learn other people's
I can think of only one time in my life where I was specifically asked to share my pronouns, and it was in a very queer group with a lot of gender non-conforming folk so it made sense to include in the introductions. As for learning other people's, well, fine? Learning things about other people is just part of existing as a social animal and pronouns are a pretty simple one to remember. Like you say, there are a tiny number of trans people, you're not going to meet them often, and when you do, the vast majority use pronouns in line with their gender presentation. This is really making a mountain out of the tiniest molehill.
We're not having to "bend over backwards" or "restructure society". It only seems that way to terminally online gender criticals who spend their days consuming anti-trans fearmongering content.
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u/Combat_Orca 3d ago
The right wing think that trans people are destroying our society.
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u/jimthewanderer Sussex 3d ago
Culture war.
Demonize tiny minority, normalise discrimination against them, use them as a political punching bag to distract the thick and hateful while your rob everyone blind.
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u/ClingerOn 3d ago
People understand homelessness and poverty and crime. People don’t understand trans issues, so it makes them confused and nervous and they lash out. It gets clicks and engagement because social media and the news have turned the little adrenaline rush you get when you’re angry in to a drug.
I probably see more trans people than I used to but I think that’s because the visibility has made some more comfortable being out in public, but that’s still maybe one or two a month out of the tens of thousands of people I deal with or just generally share public spaces with.
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u/CloneOfKarl 3d ago
Alongside these seemingly conflicting stances within the party, yesterday Keir Starmer also said he will meet with JK Rowling to discuss trans issues.
Or how about spending that time discussing the issue with experts in the field instead?
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u/CarlLlamaface 3d ago
JK Rowling? To discuss trans issues? Great idea! We should seek out Prince Andrew's advice on stranger danger while we're at it! Fucking clown show.
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u/Vasquerade 3d ago
I'm thinking of getting David Duke involved in helping write my article about BLM
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u/Vasquerade 3d ago
Are you telling me a cis straight woman living in a castle isn't an expert on gender dysphoria??
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u/thegamingbacklog 3d ago
Don't forget she does release books under the name Robert sometimes
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u/AvatarIII West Sussex 3d ago
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u/KiltedTraveller 3d ago edited 3d ago
a name she took from Robert F. Kennedy, a personal hero, and Ella Galbraith, a name she invented for herself in childhood.
What's more likely, it's a made up name or it's the (first and middle) name of a niche American psychiatrist who died 14 years before she used the name?
He was also a pioneer of gay conversion therapy. JK Rowling may be anti-trans but she has never stated any support for gay conversion and has historically been very pro-homosexuality.
Even LGBTQ+ centric media publisher "them" admits that it's "likely an unfortunate bit of happenstance"
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u/ChefExcellence Hull 3d ago
When was the last time Keir Starmer met with a trans person to discuss these "issues", do you reckon?
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u/Aiyon 3d ago
When was the time anyone significant platformed us?
Every second article about us has a TERF or GC hate group on to give their piece. Even the cass review consulted with conversion therapy advocates.
But trans people or allies? Idk, seems like bias to me, let’s not
The closest thing I’ve seen is Nish Kumar having a pair of trans public figures on his podcast to talk about stuff. Which I respect him a lot for
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u/arahman81 3d ago
Remember how the BBC platformed a rapist in their article about cis women being "pressured" to have sex with trans women?
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u/HazelCheese 2d ago
Rapist and domestic abuser.
They also interviewed trans people for it but didn't include any of their comments because they didn't "tell the right story".
Literal insanity. It's not even a joke. It's straight up nationalised bigotry.
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u/Ver_Void 3d ago
Sorry can't hear you over the sound of a dozen terfs on the radio yelling about being silenced
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u/beIIe-and-sebastian Écosse 🏴 3d ago
Starmer's Labour always have time to meet with billionaires.
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u/Darq_At 3d ago
Or even just like, talking to a few trans people?
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u/Jbewrite 3d ago edited 3d ago
Trans people and doctors would be ideal; not far-right sympathising, entitled castle owning, holocaust denying, anti-Labour, transphobic, gloating billionaire fantasy authors.
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u/mayasux 3d ago
Why am I supposed to believe that this man genuinely has my back?
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u/RockinOneThreeTwo Liverpool 3d ago edited 3d ago
Because the rabid out-of-touch idiots of /r/uk and /r/ukpolitics demand you have to otherwise they'll shout slurs at you. It's just good, honest, mature, grown-up politics you see.
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u/ClingerOn 3d ago
Fucking insane thing to say days before the election. Absolutely no one was thinking to themselves “I’m considering voting Labour but Kier hasn’t said whether he’ll meet JK Rowling to talk about trans people yet”.
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u/RockinOneThreeTwo Liverpool 3d ago edited 3d ago
Shit like this is the exact reason (well, one of many) young people refuse to take Starmer seriously and things like this are one of the thousands straws that leads them to become non-voters. "Yeah actually, I'm not interested in talking to experts or doctors on the topic, but I would like to have a discussion with a childrens author turned internet TERF about it". Every time the man opens his mouth he cements my opinion of him as a completely gormless twat honestly.
It's a horrid state of affairs when his contemporaries are a raging racist pro-russian oligarch who wants to be Liz Truss, The same dipshit tory prime minister we've had for almost 2 years already, the entire manifesto of the greens which I can't even boil down it's nonsense into an insult because it defies simple definition and the fucking Lib Dems banging the same unsuccessful drum they've been banging for 8 years. How anyone can be surprised about the fact that young people are turning away from the "democracy" we have in this country when this is the shit they're given to choose from is beyond me.
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u/Panda_hat 3d ago
Far far ahead in the polls... time to meet up with a transphobe to discuss making transphobic laws for no reason at all!
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u/RainRainThrowaway777 3d ago
Talking to JK Rowling about Transgender issues is like asking a Paranoid Schizophrenic to review stalking legislation.
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u/sweepernosweeping Lothian 3d ago
May as well gather Glinner and Posie Parker Together and get them to write the legislation at that rate.
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u/inevitablelizard 3d ago
Rowling has also on at least a few occasions retweeted and supported "gender critical" people who push anti-semitic conspiracy theories about the trans lobby. Funny how she gets away with that and even gets to have private meetings.
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u/techbear72 3d ago
Ah yes, this will fix the “trans issue” just like Section 28 successfully eliminated all gay people from the UK.
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u/JMM85JMM 3d ago
It always makes me laugh that people think if their children don't hear about gay people growing up then they will never be gay.
All I heard about growing up was being straight. And surprise. I turned out gay anyway.
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u/TheTokenEnglishman 3d ago
No if we keep the kids away from Elton John, rainbows, and Heartstopper they all turn out straight, right?
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u/Panda_hat 3d ago
And the only thing it will achieve is fostering bullying, othering and ostracisation of the kids that are 'different', and overall a hostile environment for non heteronormative individuals, whilst suppressing any atmosphere of empathy and understanding.
Exactly as they want it to, of course.
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u/Kwinza 3d ago
“I think we need to complete the consultation process and make sure that there is guidance that is age appropriate.
That is helpful for teachers and has at its heart the safeguarding of children.”
Story over nothing. He didn't say he doesn't want schools teaching gender, he said they want to wait until they have all the facts as to how to teach it.
But its pinknews, its basically the dailymail of the far left.
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u/potpan0 Black Country 3d ago
He didn't say he doesn't want schools teaching gender
He quite literally stated that “No, I’m not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender.” You're choosing to reference the most innocuous comment while ignoring the much more problematic one.
If the man calling for a consultation is regurgitating the rhetoric of people very much opposed to the existence of trans people, and when he's consistently had meetings with transphobes while largely sidelining trans people and people who support trans rights, then it does not bode well for the composition of that consultation.
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u/Tom22174 3d ago
To me that sounds like he doesn't want teachers pushing personal views, he wants to consult with experts to figure out how to teach it properly
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u/saviouroftheweak Hull 3d ago
The antiquated and dangerous idea that being LGBT+ is a taught event
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u/Tom22174 3d ago
You don't teach people to be LGBT. You teach people about what it means to be LGBT so those who are but don't understand it yet can and those who aren't can get a correct understanding before the bigots get in and instill fear of the other.
Doing that correctly is difficult because teachers when left to their own devices, will teach their opinions, that is dangerous because it opens the door for the anti-trans crowd to push their beliefs on children if there is no structured curriculum in place
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u/potpan0 Black Country 3d ago
To me that sounds like he doesn't want teachers pushing personal views
Well it sounds to me like he's uncritically regurgitating a dogwhistle ('gender ideology') used almost exclusively by open transphobes.
It's getting kinda tiresome to see people insisting on interpreting Starmer's statements like a mystic trying to read tea leaves when he's pretty clearly telling you what he believes.
he wants to consult with experts to figure out how to teach it properly
Well that's the issue, right? Given how cosy Starmer and his team have been with transphobes and how dismissive they've been towards trans people themselves, why should we trust him not to pack any 'consultation' with transphobes?
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u/glasgowgeg 3d ago
he wants to consult with experts to figure out how to teach it properly
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u/glasgowgeg 3d ago edited 3d ago
Speaking with reporters during a school visit in Kettering, Starmer said: “No, I’m not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender,” he said.
Any reason you
admittedomitted the first quote from him?He didn't say he doesn't want schools teaching gender
Sure, if you ignore he did. If you don't consider it age appropriate until 18, that's de facto saying you don't want it taught in schools.
Edit: Fixed autocorrect.
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u/BAT-OUT-OF-HECK 3d ago
If you don't consider it age appropriate until 18,
He literally did not say this. Age appropriate means teaching things at an appropriate complexity level, it doesn't mean not teaching it at all until adulthood
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u/Darq_At 3d ago
Because LGBT+ people are all too accustomed to "age appropriate" meaning "never" because straight and cisgender people consider anything queer to be inherently more adult and sexual than it really is.
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u/Smooth_Maul 3d ago
I literally said out loud "okay what's the full context" and he never even said what the headline is saying. Textbook fake news and people lap it up because they have a weird hate boner for Kier and Labour so big that they will believe literally anything they read and refuse to go beyond a headline because it confirms their pre-existing biases.
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u/glasgowgeg 3d ago
The guy you're replying to omitted the first part of Starmer's quote:
Speaking with reporters during a school visit in Kettering, Starmer said: “No, I’m not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender,” he said.
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u/Smooth_Maul 3d ago
Yeah and the rest of the quote is saying because we don't know enough about it.
I'd rather my kids be taught about trans people by a professional and not someone with pre-existing biases filling their head with outdated information.
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u/glasgowgeg 3d ago
Then the schools consult and work with professionals to devise a curriculum, same as they'd do with any other topic.
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u/leaflace 3d ago
Which is what the consultation is for..
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u/glasgowgeg 3d ago
Then there's no need for him to say “No, I’m not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender”.
You only need to say you're working with professionals to devise a curriculum.
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u/leaflace 3d ago
If you understood that gender ideology is a right wing term to denigrate transgender people you would.
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u/glasgowgeg 3d ago
I understand that, and his use of it is because he's opposed to it entirely, which is what I'm saying.
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u/lem0nhe4d 3d ago
Why would you speak to a billionaire children's author about trans rights?
Did JK secretly get a master's in human rights law or a doctorate in endocrinology and just not tell anyone?
Is labour planning on giving Neil Gaiman a buzz to get his views on property tax rates?
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u/yui_tsukino 3d ago
Neil's opinions on taxes are probably more coherent, at least.
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u/JuanDiablos 3d ago
Normally, the answer to questions like this that don't seem to have a logical answer is money.
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u/lem0nhe4d 3d ago
Exactly. To labour wealth is an important datum when deciding a person's importance.
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u/Wuffles70 3d ago
The irony here is that Kier Starmer was a human rights lawyer. Realistically, he knows what protections trans people currently have and what he's doing. He's just decided it's a fair trade for political clout.
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u/TheLimeyLemmon 3d ago
Alongside these seemingly conflicting stances within the party, yesterday Keir Starmer also said he will meet with JK Rowling to discuss trans issues.
Before presumably sitting down with Karen Matthews to discuss child welfare.
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u/djshadesuk 3d ago
Rumour has it when it comes to old age care Kier had to be informed that Dr Shipman is unavailable.
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u/GreatBigBagOfNope Derbyshire 3d ago
And disgraced former doctor Andrew Wakefield about public health, of course
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u/Kobruh456 3d ago
Are we done pretending that Labour is going to be good for trans people then?
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u/Lard_Baron 3d ago edited 3d ago
Labour is done with courting it basic leftie voters They figure they are in the bag they also feel they have the uncommitted centrists
Everything now is aimed at getting the soft Tories votes. The Trans stance, the flag on all leaflets, the border task force, all his speech’s.
He genuinely thinks he can destroy the right wing for decades by leaving them to fight reform over the right wing nutter vote.
It’s ugly but that’s what’s happening. Huge signals given to the soft Tories that’s it’s ok to vote Labour.
Will they govern as they have campaigned? No. At least that is what the chat is among the London membership.
I am a Labour member and activist and campaigned for JC. I also have emails thanking me for JC’s defend fund and truth and justice project.
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u/GentlemanBeggar54 3d ago
He genuinely thinks he can destroy the right wing for decades by leaving them to fight reform over the right wing nutter vote.
What's the end game? What's going to happen after he wins. He actually going to pass laws targeting trans people or he is going to piss off his newly won voters by admitting he lied to get their votes?
How would it destroy the right wing if they lose those voters for only a single election cycle? That's basically what happened to Labour in 2019 and they haven't been vanquished.
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u/PersistentWorld 3d ago
My daughter is 13 and there is a trans person in her class. They've all grown up with this individual and for years they've all known. The school have been brilliant, parents don't care and the kids totally get it. I just don't understand the drama around it by politicians and media.
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u/thatgermansnail 3d ago
This is the issue though right? The people who are kicking up a fuss about gender being taught in schools are not the people actually attending the schools.
The kids attending the schools already get it and have known about it for years. And if they don't get it, their mate tells them about it or they watch a video about it on TikTok or YouTube and the majority of them will just be like "okay cool".
It's just all smoke and mirrors by a minority of loud voices.
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u/Jawnyan 3d ago
I’m glad we continue to focus on what are clearly the biggest issue/s
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u/Polar_poop 3d ago
People can’t afford to eat but this issue, which impacts a tiny community, continues to absorb way too much oxygen.
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u/Ironfields 3d ago
Every time I see Labour referencing Pride I just think of shit like this. Their words mean less than nothing while Rose Duffield is still an MP and the party leader wants to do Section 28 all over again. Despicable behaviour.
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u/greatdrams23 3d ago
It's not that simple. What happens when a pupil asks a question? "My brother wants to be a girl and I don't understand", do you ignore that?
Or a pupil says "I hate trans people" or "my dad says Ben in year 12 should be thrown out of school because he is trans. I agree".
You cannot ignore these questions.
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u/fearghul Scotland 3d ago
Oh look Section 28 is back...it really is just history repeating.
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u/dyinginsect 3d ago
Christ, but this paper is one of the worst ones for "headline asserting things that article does not in fact back up" 'reporting'
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u/Freddichio 3d ago
Generally agree, but in this article?
“No, I’m not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender,”
Feels pretty clear-cut, no?
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u/MasonSC2 3d ago
He literally said he does not want “ideology” on gender being taught. Then ask what he considers “gender ideology” to mean, I’ll give you a hint. It’s teaching kids that some people are trans and that’s okay, don’t bully them.
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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 3d ago
Keir Starmer, who was previously applauded for condemning Rishi Sunak’s anti-trans ‘jokes’, has stated his opposition to the teaching of so-called “gender ideology” – a phrase which is widely considered an anti-trans dogwhistle.
I have not heard of this being dogwhistle before. Hopefully those with more knowledge than me can tell me why it is one.
Speaking with reporters during a school visit in Kettering, Starmer said: “No, I’m not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender,” he said.
“I think we need to complete the consultation process and make sure that there is guidance that is age appropriate.
It would be interesting to see what the state decides when it is age appropriate.
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As an aside, this website needs a web dev/designer. Why are their ads after almost every paragraph?
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u/raininfordays 3d ago
I have not heard of this being dogwhistle before. Hopefully those with more knowledge than me can tell me why it is one.
Its the equivalent of the "gay agenda"
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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 3d ago
I see. So teaching about gender is not an issue irrespective of whom you are teaching it to? Sorry, I’m not knowledgeable in this area.
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u/Vasquerade 3d ago
Teaching gender to kids at a young age is something like "There are some people out there, not very many but they're real, who do not feel like they were born in the right body. We may not understand what that feels like but we should be respectful and treat them like any other person"
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u/Gengis_con Gloucestershire 3d ago
An ideology is something you believe, possibly irrationally. By talking about "gender ideology" you are implying that being trans is something you think rather than something you are. It is the same idea as the "choice to be gay" bullshit.
Ideologies are also things that people often try to convince others of or convert people to, so there is an implication that "they are coming to turn your children trans", another common refrain from people trying to whip up transphobic panic.
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u/j0kerclash 3d ago
If your gender is about how you perceive your own identity, then surely it is what you think?
There isn't going to be a situation where you are trans but don't think that you are. That's just someone pushing their judgement of what they think your gender is onto you.
A choice to be gay isn't comparable, imo because there are clearly defined physiological responses to arousal that determine sexuality, whereas gender is a social construct with the person's gender determined by the person's own subjective view of themselves.
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u/opaldrop 3d ago edited 3d ago
Gender as a social construct is not the same concept as gender identity. You can't choose whether you're dysphoric or not. It's as much an innate response to ones own body as sexual identity is to other people's bodies.
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u/LaughingInTheVoid 3d ago
Yes you can. All evidence points to people being born this way.
Gender identity has long been thought to be an innate characteristic, and research has been finding hints of a biological side for decades.
I spent far too much of my life not thinking I was trans, but when I looked up the definition of gender dysphoria, it fit me to a T. Being trans is not a feeling, it's simply something that you are, and hiding the information necessary to let people figure this out will only cause harm.
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u/CloneOfKarl 3d ago
As an aside, this website needs a web dev/designer. Why are their ads after almost every paragraph?
They consider it a feature, not a bug. Got to get that ad revenue.
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u/fonster_mox 3d ago
As an aside, this website needs a web dev/designer. Why are their ads after almost every paragraph?
Web dev here, I can assure you that neither myself nor my designer colleagues are responsible for things like that.
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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 3d ago
So why is it so bad? Even with adblocker turned on.
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u/Punchausen 3d ago edited 3d ago
PR: "Just say you'll leave it to the schools to decide"
Starmer: "No, what the voters really want is a leader who makes unnecessary cunty comments"
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u/BrewtalDoom 3d ago
So we can have Religious Education classes where we learn about the different religious beliefs, and why they think we're all going to rightfully burn in hell or suffer in some horrible afterlife, but we can't talk about actual real people that will be friends and relatives of students in the class? Riiiiiiiiight.
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u/Longjumping_Stand889 3d ago
Maybe I'm reading the article wrong, but I don't think the headline is accurate.
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u/TheKingOfCaledonia 3d ago
While this opinion may not be popular on Reddit, many people across the country see no issue with Keir Starmer's stance on not teaching gender ideology in schools. It's important to prioritize age-appropriate and factual content in education. Starmer's approach aims to safeguard children while maintaining educational integrity. It's about finding a balanced and thoughtful way to respect all identities without causing unnecessary confusion among young students.
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u/ZealousidealAd4383 3d ago
Personally, I’ll be continuing to teach inheritance of biological sex accurately: yes, you can do the Punnett square / XX / XY thing and that’s all you need for GCSE but bear in mind that just like all the other phenotypes we’ve discussed already, it’s not a single gene expression and there are environmental factors too which we don’t fully understand.
Frankly, I don’t think there’d be half as many people feeling uncomfortable in their gender if so many cunts hadn’t made such a big deal about rigid social boundaries between what men and women are allowed to do.
It’s all very well saying “a woman is a person with ovaries” but when you’re saying in the same breath “…and looks STUNNING in beautiful dresses and doesn’t drink pints and works in secretarial jobs and never swears and is permitted to express emotions other than anger and is only attracted to men…” then the ovaries were really never your sticking point were they?
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u/BeccasBump 3d ago
Well, that's interesting wording, isn't it. He says he doesn't want gender identities taught as an ideology.
It could be a big fat dogwhistle... or it could be the opposite. If, as the clarification from the Labour spokesperson seems to imply, you don't think teaching children about different gender identities is ideological, then it's throwing the bigots an apparent bone while actually meaning he intends to ignore them.
I dunno, I can't get a handle on Kier Starmer. He seems so non-commital, but I don't see how you get to be a QC in your thirties by being soggy. There must be a spine in there somewhere.
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u/iiSpezza 3d ago
I mean it all depends on how this is meant.
If this is a "you cant discuss it under any circumstances or you'll be taken to prison" -- like some weird Texas ruling, then obviously that's a problem
If it's just "I don't think we should have a mandated class teaching about trans people and gender identity" -- then it's probably not a big deal
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u/CGP05 Canada 3d ago
As a Canadian, Keir Starmer and the Labour party sometimes sound more conservative than our conservative party (on issues like this and also immigration)
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u/rabid_ducky 3d ago
Neither do I honestly. I love and respect trans people and will use their chosen name/gender in conversation, but I'm just not convinced by the ideology. And I think teaching this to young people who are still developing physically and mentally is potentially harmful given we can't even agree on the fundamental principles of gender ideology as a society.
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u/craftaleislife 3d ago
There’s more context and nuance to this. The article is heavily biased being pink news anyway (an extremely pro LGBT+ activism site)
He said gender ideology shouldn’t be taught…looking at national stats, only 1% of the population are trans. I don’t think schools would teach anything that affects such a small minority plus it’s forcing ideologies and beliefs onto people. Same reason I believe religion shouldn’t be taught in schools.
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u/Sithfish 3d ago
FFS. Give Labour a gun and they will aim immediately at their own feet, every time.
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u/la1mark 3d ago
Reading this thread shows me how many people don't have a clue how to read and digest online media. This article is fucking terrible lol.
Rage bait headline
Gives his response to a question when the question isn't even published.
cut's up his response to make it seem more unhinged than it is.
Just wild..
it's why you need to see the actual question and answer for context.
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u/Psychosociety Cambridgeshire 3d ago
What more is there to teach than 'trans people exist and that's okay'? Trans folks are about 0.3% of the population. That's all that needs to be said.
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u/sprauncey_dildoes 3d ago
No he didn't. Not according to the article.
“I think we need to complete the consultation process and make sure that there is guidance that is age appropriate.
“That is helpful for teachers and has at its heart the safeguarding of children.”
That suggests he does want it taught but at the appropriate time and way. You might disagree with him about what exactly that is but that's what a consultation process is for. To suggest that he doesn't want it taught at all is a hysterical lie.
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u/Khenir East Sussex 3d ago
I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt and hope the ex-QC lawyer bloke is being technical and not buying into the idea that such an ideology exists.
To re-iterate:
The Gay Agenda does not exist. Trans Ideology does not exist.
Gay PEOPLE exist. Trans PEOPLE exist.
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u/HawweesonFord 3d ago
I thought that gender ideology was just the concept that sex and gender are not the same and that gender can also be a spectrum instead of a binary.
Being trans is a separate issue no?
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u/stormwave6 3d ago
Gender Ideology is the same as the Gay Agenda. A meaningless term designed to scare people about Trans people existing.
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