r/unitedkingdom • u/PinkNews Verified Media Outlet • 5d ago

Keir Starmer says he doesn’t want schools teaching young people about transgender identities ...

https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/06/25/keir-starmer-trans-education-general-election-2024/
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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 5d ago

Keir Starmer, who was previously applauded for condemning Rishi Sunak’s anti-trans ‘jokes’, has stated his opposition to the teaching of so-called “gender ideology” – a phrase which is widely considered an anti-trans dogwhistle.

I have not heard of this being dogwhistle before. Hopefully those with more knowledge than me can tell me why it is one.

Speaking with reporters during a school visit in Kettering, Starmer said: “No, I’m not in favour of ideology being taught in our schools on gender,” he said.

“I think we need to complete the consultation process and make sure that there is guidance that is age appropriate.

It would be interesting to see what the state decides when it is age appropriate.

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As an aside, this website needs a web dev/designer. Why are their ads after almost every paragraph?

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u/raininfordays 5d ago

I have not heard of this being dogwhistle before. Hopefully those with more knowledge than me can tell me why it is one.

Its the equivalent of the "gay agenda"

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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 5d ago

I see. So teaching about gender is not an issue irrespective of whom you are teaching it to? Sorry, I’m not knowledgeable in this area.

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u/Vasquerade 5d ago

Teaching gender to kids at a young age is something like "There are some people out there, not very many but they're real, who do not feel like they were born in the right body. We may not understand what that feels like but we should be respectful and treat them like any other person"

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u/limeflavoured Hucknall 5d ago

Even that is too much for some people.

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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 5d ago

That makes sense. Thank you.

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u/ChefExcellence Hull 5d ago

Lot of adults that could do with that lesson too, sadly.

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u/Altaria87 Lancashire 5d ago

Okay you can stop pretending that you're not acting in bad faith now. Obviously teaching people that trans people exist shouldn't be an issue just like teaching them the same about gay people, and noone neutral would believe it could be.

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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 5d ago

I don’t think it should be an issue either.

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u/Crowf3ather 5d ago

But its not. A lot of people see gender ideology as the complete nonsense with its 99999 other genders.

Trans people do not sit into that category of 999 other genders, as they are already recognized as trans-men or trans-women, which fits into the gender binary.

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u/raininfordays 5d ago edited 5d ago

Ah yes as humans are so very black in white in every other aspect they must be black and white in terms of gender too.

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u/Gengis_con Gloucestershire 5d ago

An ideology is something you believe, possibly irrationally. By talking about "gender ideology" you are implying that being trans is something you think rather than something you are. It is the same idea as the "choice to be gay" bullshit.

Ideologies are also things that people often try to convince others of or convert people to, so there is an implication that "they are coming to turn your children trans", another common refrain from people trying to whip up transphobic panic.

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u/j0kerclash 5d ago

If your gender is about how you perceive your own identity, then surely it is what you think?

There isn't going to be a situation where you are trans but don't think that you are. That's just someone pushing their judgement of what they think your gender is onto you.

A choice to be gay isn't comparable, imo because there are clearly defined physiological responses to arousal that determine sexuality, whereas gender is a social construct with the person's gender determined by the person's own subjective view of themselves.

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u/opaldrop 5d ago edited 5d ago

Gender as a social construct is not the same concept as gender identity. You can't choose whether you're dysphoric or not. It's as much an innate response to ones own body as sexual identity is to other people's bodies.

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u/j0kerclash 5d ago

You can't choose your beliefs either.

Either you believe something to be the case, or you don't.

and the OP that I responded to defined Ideology as a belief.

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u/opaldrop 5d ago

In a determinist sense you don't "choose" belief, but belief is malleable. Most people shift through beliefs many times over the course of their lives.

All evidence we have points to the conclusion that gender identity is immutable. You can choose not to transition and try to cope with dysphoria in other ways just like you can choose to go against your sexuality if you're gay, but you can't choose whether or not to have it in the first place. It's completely different to an ideology.

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u/LaughingInTheVoid 5d ago

Yes you can. All evidence points to people being born this way.

Gender identity has long been thought to be an innate characteristic, and research has been finding hints of a biological side for decades.

I spent far too much of my life not thinking I was trans, but when I looked up the definition of gender dysphoria, it fit me to a T. Being trans is not a feeling, it's simply something that you are, and hiding the information necessary to let people figure this out will only cause harm.

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u/potpan0 Black Country 5d ago

I'm not really sure you're getting what OP is saying here.

Trans people, or people who are gender non-conforming, have existed throughout human history and across human societies. I can look to Ancient Rome, or to pre-1492 Americas, or pre-colonial Africa, and find plenty of examples of people who did not conform to a rigid and biologically determined gender binary. Were they ever a majority? No, but they existed.

However, a small people of transphobes insist that trans people only came into existence in the 1900s, as part of a nefarious ideological attempt to destabilise the traditional family or attack women or some similar guff. They describe this process as 'gender ideology', and insist this 'ideology' was created very recently. It's a dangerous attempt to dehistoriocise trans people, to reject the vast historical evidence of trans and gender non-conforming people existing in human societies and therefore present trans people as dishonest charlatans lying about their identity. And that's why it's so particularly galling to be seeing a leader of a British political party, one who has ostensibly claimed to stand up for minority groups, repeating this.

For what it's worth homophobes and racists have took a similar approach too. Homophobes insisted that homosexuality only came into existence in the 1900s, and a common racist line is that the term 'racism' was invented in the Soviet Union in the early 1900s (and therefore that anyone complaining about racism is an evil communist).

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u/j0kerclash 5d ago

"who did not conform to a rigid and biologically determined gender binary"

Gender non-conforming people don't behave solely within the bounds of typical gender roles, but this says nothing about the gender binary.

Someone who's gender non conforming can simply see feminine and masculine traits as part of a spectrum of behaviour rather than defining themselves as distinct from the gender typically associated with their sex.

I understand the idea of ideology being used for malicious cultural purposes though, but I still think any counter culture that opposes it shouldn't obfuscate what gender is.

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u/potpan0 Black Country 5d ago

Gender non-conforming people don't behave solely within the bounds of typical gender roles, but this says nothing about the gender binary.

The existence of gender non-conforming people says a hell of a lot about the 'gender binary', I don't get what you mean. Traditionalists insist that, before the 1900s, everyone was either 'man' or 'woman' and that this was determined entirely by biology. But a knowledge of history demonstrates that across the world there have been plenty of people, often very much accepted by their broader social systems, who challenged that, either by sitting on a position which was not 'man' or 'woman' or transitioning between them.

but I still think any counter culture that opposes it shouldn't obfuscate what gender is.

How do you think gender is being 'obfuscated'?

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u/j0kerclash 5d ago

It's being obfuscated by dismissing gender identity and the factors that determine it for an individual as biologically innate like sexuality rather than a system of belief influenced by cultural norms.

Like you mentioned, other societal norms include additional genders, but it's not like the two systems are made up of dramatically distinct groups in regards to biology, both are human groups, it's a different way of labelling gender with different cultural norms being the main factor.

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u/opaldrop 5d ago

Gender identity is to at least a significantly degree objectively biologically innate. This can be seen in twin studies pretty readily.

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u/potpan0 Black Country 5d ago

It's being obfuscated by dismissing gender identity and the factors that determine it for an individual as biologically innate like sexuality rather than a system of belief influenced by cultural norms.

Sorry, I'm struggling to parse this sentence. It seems to me that you're suggesting:

1) Gender is biologically determined

2) Sexuality is biologically determined

Both of which are, quite frankly, nonsense. The mere existence of gay people pretty clearly demonstrates the second point is nonsense, and the long-term historical examples of gender non-conforming people demonstrates the first point is nonsense too.

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u/j0kerclash 5d ago

I'm saying gender is not biologically determined and that sexuality is influenced heavily by biology.

The existence of gay people doesn't contradict that point, I'm just pointing to a biological component relating to the triggers of sexuality for any person, gay, or straight.

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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 5d ago

Ab okay. Thank you for explaining. So that’s why it’s okay to teach gender regardless of the age of whom you are teaching?

It’s interesting to read these stories because my algorithms show me flamewars re trans issues. Perhaps I need to reorganise my algorithms. Thanks again.

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u/lem0nhe4d 5d ago

Trans people can exist at every age.

If you speak to trans people tons of us knew were trans when we are extremely young but didn't know it was something that is perfectly normal and this felt isolated or like we were broken.

No one is saying you need to tell 4 year Olds the ins and outs of transition but saying it's okay if you are trans with a basic definition would aliviate a lot of stress and increase acceptance in younger generations.

Same thing was done with gay people. People sacremongered about kids learning about gay people so section 28 happened and tons of gay kids felt like something was wrong with them.

Now in school kids could be told it's normal for someone to have 2 dad's or 2 mams so gay kids don't automatically assume something is wrong with them when they figure it out.

The only thing that would happen with a trans specific section 28 is more trans kids feeling like shit and being afraid to come out. It won't reduce the number of trans kids it will just make their lives worse.

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u/CloneOfKarl 5d ago

As an aside, this website needs a web dev/designer. Why are their ads after almost every paragraph?

They consider it a feature, not a bug. Got to get that ad revenue.

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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 5d ago

Honestly, it made it difficult to follow the content and to copy/paste.

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u/fonster_mox 5d ago

As an aside, this website needs a web dev/designer. Why are their ads after almost every paragraph?

Web dev here, I can assure you that neither myself nor my designer colleagues are responsible for things like that.

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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 5d ago

So why is it so bad? Even with adblocker turned on.

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u/Disgruntled__Goat Worcestershire 5d ago

Because managers demand maximising revenue, ignoring how awful it looks. 

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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 5d ago

I can attest to that a little bit.

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u/Vasquerade 5d ago

Gender ideology is basically a term mostly used within the eastern european far right to describe societies making adjustments to better the lives of trans people and integrate them into society.

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u/TeaBoy24 5d ago

Or left eastern European parties.

Nothing to do with far right in specific.

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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 5d ago

Thank you.

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u/Poosay_Slayer 5d ago

you realise the dev will have done that because they were told to...

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u/GrainsofArcadia Yorkshire 5d ago

As an aside, this website needs a web dev/designer. Why are their ads after almost every paragraph?

Because basically no one actually buys a paper anymore.

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u/Panda_hat 5d ago

I have not heard of this being dogwhistle before. Hopefully those with more knowledge than me can tell me why it is one.

It reduces the existence of trans people to an 'idea' or 'ideology' as opposed to a reality.

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u/IXMCMXCII United Kingdom 5d ago

Thank you.