r/unitedkingdom • u/PinkNews Verified Media Outlet • 5d ago

Keir Starmer says he doesn’t want schools teaching young people about transgender identities ...

https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/06/25/keir-starmer-trans-education-general-election-2024/
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u/CitrusRabborts 5d ago

But it's the same when considering if you're gay or not. Some people experiment and decide it's not for them. We shouldn't be bothered if teenagers socially transition and then decide it's not for them

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u/ItsFuckingScience 5d ago

Socially transitioning is not equivalent to kissing a boy and deciding it’s not actually for you

Getting yourself, your peers, teachers to address and support you as a new person and identity, persevering against potential pushback from parents, family or anyone suggesting it could “be a phase” etc is not easily psychologically reversible

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u/Broccoli--Enthusiast 5d ago

But who cares if people want to socially transition ? Why is it a big deal? They aren't becoming a new person, they are using a name they are more comfortable with, maybe wearing different clothes. They are still the same person. Just being more public about how they feel.

I work with a trans person, one day Stacey became Hunter, she became he

It did not affect me one but, other than a few slips everyone had it down within a few weeks.

It literally doesn't harm or affect you in the slightest. Just let people be happy for fuck sake.

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u/ItsFuckingScience 5d ago

Because the Cass Review stated socially transitioning should be viewed as a psychological / medical intervention because it

“may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning and longer term outcomes”

So it is a big deal. I’m supportive of trans people finding happiness and comfortable in their identity but this is a topic of research which is still quite new and developing which there isn’t a significant amount of evidence for.

And suggesting it’s completely fine and being totally fine with school children to socially transition without any medical / psychological oversight is wrong in my opinion.

That said, if one of my friends or colleagues said they were trans and wanted me to call them by x new name or use him/her or them instead I’d be totally fine with doing it. No issue at all.

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u/Wuffles70 5d ago

The Cass Report also omitted studies from the review on the basis that they weren't double blind studies. 

In pediatric medicine.

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u/ItsFuckingScience 5d ago

In the week after the release of the final report, Cass described receiving abusive emails and was given security advice to avoid public transport.[102] She also said that "disinformation" had frequently been spread online about the report. Cass stated "if you deliberately try to undermine a report that has looked at the evidence of children's healthcare, then that's unforgivable. You are putting children at risk by doing that."[102]

There were widespread, false claims from critics of the report that it had dismissed 98% of the studies it collected and all studies which weren't double-blind experiments.

Cass described these claims as being "completely incorrect". Although only 2% of the papers collected were considered to be of high quality, 60% of the papers, including those considered to be of moderate quality, were considered in the report's evidence synthesis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review

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u/queenieofrandom 5d ago

The cass review is full of flaws though

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u/ItsFuckingScience 5d ago

It was well received by the British psychological society, Royal college of psychiatrists, and the royal college of paediatrics and child health

It was led by a consultant paediatrician and former president of royal college of paediatrics and child health

What did you find flawed with it? I think it’s the best evidenced based review out there?

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u/queenieofrandom 5d ago

Well it spoke about the lack of double blind trials, which isn't standard in paediatrics for one. Or that some of the writers and researchers are known advocates for conversion therapy.

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u/Pluckerpluck Hertfordshire 5d ago

Well it spoke about the lack of double blind trials

I've read the full thing, and the only actual mention of "blind trials" is in a definition of what it means. It's never brought up otherwise, and was never a primary way in which reviewers were deemed high quality or not. So I don't know where this idea of talking about the lack of double blind trials even came from. Generally it was a lack of long-term follow up that lowered the quality of studies.

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u/mittfh West Midlands 5d ago

Even though many of the studies were categorised as Moderate or High quality by the York team, Cass effectively dismissed them as very weak evidence for any intervention (including social transitioning) due to either (a) not representing children from every background, every coincidental mental / neurological condition and every age of first identifying as trans (but to do so, you'd effectively need a multinational study of hundreds of thousands of people to get enough to fulfil every category in both the "had blockers / HRT" and "didn't have blockers / HRT" cohorts), (b) a high drop-out rate (inevitable if you want to study a cohort over many years), and (c) 1-3 years after starting HRT is apparently nowhere near long enough to follow them.

She'd also like studies to examine not just the person's health, but also how well they do in life generally: do they move out of their parental home, do they get a job, do they form relationships with others. To do that would necessitate an even larger international cohort, and a study potentially lasting several decades to last from childhood to nearly 30.

Added onto which, even social transition shouldn't be started without clinical consent, and even then should only be part time (at home, not in school). While setting up multiple child gender clinics around the country and having a holistic assessment of all their needs sounds good in theory, the two new clinics are struggling to find staff, while the CAMHS (Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services) waiting list is currently over 100,000, and there's likely to be very little additional money for health services in general over the coming few years.

So for all but a handful of children, they may go from a 4 year wait to access a gender clinic to a wait until they're nearly 30 (given Cass recommended children's gender services look after young people until they're 25 before moving to adult services) - so effectively outlawing the bulk of trans children. Oh, and private providers will likely be required to follow the same pathway as the NHS or have their license pulled.

Added onto which, despite waiting lists for adult gender referrals being 5.5 years long (they're currently booking first appointments for those referred in December 2018), she's concerned that they're allegedly too quick to issue hormones, don't take other conditions such as mental health or autism into account, and there's allegedly a high rate of detransition, so the NHS is to commission a review into adult gender services. There's also a recommendation that HRT should only be given under 18 in exceptional circumstances, and all seeking HRT should have their case assessed by an independent national panel who'd make the recommendation, rather than any doctors involved in the patient's care.

So at a time when 20+ countries offer gender self identification, we're going down the opposite route of ever increasing gatekeeping and hoops to jump through - plus the ever looming possibility of barring trans people (regardless of stage of transition) from all single sex facilities and services - most organisations won't have the funds or space to set up separate unisex facilities.

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u/Ver_Void 5d ago

May have

Not being able to try and figure out who you are in your own way can do a lot of damage, did do a lot of damage to be precise

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u/PotsAndPandas 4d ago

Could you elaborate on what the actual issues are with social transitioning? Saying the Cass review says so isn't much of a statement.

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u/skepticCanary 3d ago

At this point any sentence that starts with “The Cass Review says…” is pretty much worthless.

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u/Agent_Argylle 5d ago

Cass is full of shit. Trans is nothing new.

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u/ItsFuckingScience 4d ago

You’ve clearly not read the Cass report

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u/Agent_Argylle 4d ago

You clearly haven't or read it too uncritically

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u/ItsFuckingScience 4d ago

Trans is nothing new.

What does this have to do with the Cass review

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u/oswaldluckyrabbiy 5d ago

Cass Review is bunk science. If a review in any other field chose to selectively disconsider any study that happened to disagree with their pre-determined outcome (led by a director not qualified in said field) to the scale of 98% of studies it would be placed under extreme scrutiny.

Its purpose was to be something 'sciency' that transphobes can point to as "proof" that could be used to sway otherwise uninformed but sympathetic members of the public.

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u/ItsFuckingScience 5d ago

I’m just going to copy a previous reply of mine, as you’ve spread the exact same misinformation as a previous commenter

In the week after the release of the final report, Cass described receiving abusive emails and was given security advice to avoid public transport.[102] She also said that "disinformation" had frequently been spread online about the report. Cass stated "if you deliberately try to undermine a report that has looked at the evidence of children's healthcare, then that's unforgivable. You are putting children at risk by doing that."[102]

There were widespread, false claims from critics of the report that it had dismissed 98% of the studies it collected and all studies which weren't double-blind experiments.

Cass described these claims as being "completely incorrect". Although only 2% of the papers collected were considered to be of high quality, 60% of the papers, including those considered to be of moderate quality, were considered in the report's evidence synthesis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Review

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u/oswaldluckyrabbiy 4d ago

Point still stands. In any other field if I claimed 98% of accepted data was 'poor in quality' and STILL then went on to dismiss 40% of it - the onus is on me to justify that.

Also your source for spread disinformation is Cass herself - we've seen plenty others falsely play the victim for sympathy in the past. Ahe even played a 'wont someone please think of the children' card - literally parody material.

Your defense it the classic - if you aren't 100% right which means you are 100% wrong. Ironically exactly what the Cass Report did.

You also still failed to address the other problems I pointed out like Cass being unqualified to lead the report. Imagine getting an architect to judge the space shuttle program. They might be a capable intelligent person but clearly not suited to the role. Worse her personal social media was caught to be following LGB Alliance. Imagine if a review into racial equality and treatment by the police followed an active anti-black group.

Its not fucking science it was a hitjob in disguise.

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u/ItsFuckingScience 4d ago

Point still stands. In any other field if I claimed 98% of accepted data was 'poor in quality' and STILL then went on to dismiss 40% of it - the onus is on me to justify that.

You’re lying again or have poor comprehension. She didn’t say 98% was poor in quality. If studies looked at were not of good quality then of course they should not be included. The whole point of the Cass review was a review of the available evidence.

Also your source for spread disinformation is Cass herself - we've seen plenty others falsely play the victim for sympathy in the past. Ahe even played a 'wont someone please think of the children' card - literally parody material.

It’s not parody material. Her report is not anti-trans. And even the very pro trans “side” of the discussion makes the exact same argument. It’s “think of the children” just from a different perspective. And she never said “trans is bad think of the children” she said “stop lying and spreading misinformation about a review of scientific evidence into childrens healthcare”

Your defense it the classic - if you aren't 100% right which means you are 100% wrong. Ironically exactly what the Cass Report did.

Nonsensical. This is not what I said or the Cass report did.

You also still failed to address the other problems I pointed out like Cass being unqualified to lead the report. Imagine getting an architect to judge the space shuttle program. They might be a capable intelligent person but clearly not suited to the role.

This is getting ridiculous. She was a highly qualified Paediatric consultant. She was also chairing the review. She didn’t do the review herself. She wasn’t “judging” anything. It’s a terrible analogy. Disingenuous or ignorant at best.

A former President of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health from 2012-2015, Dr Cass recently finished a term as Chair of the British Academy of Childhood Disability (2017-2020).

Other recent roles include acting as the Senior Clinical Advisor for Child Health for Health Education England.

Her consultant clinical practice was as a tertiary neurodisability consultant from 1992 to 2018 in three very different specialist centres and she has published widely in this area.

Worse her personal social media was caught to be following LGB Alliance. Imagine if a review into racial equality and treatment by the police followed an active anti-black group.

Can’t comment on this. Was she following multiple other groups including pro trans groups? Or just this alliance you mention?

Its not fucking science it was a hitjob in disguise.

Hysterical conspiratorial criticism of a well regarded review of available scientific literature.

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u/boycecodd Kent 4d ago

Following someone on social media doesn't even mean you agree with them, it just might mean you want to stay informed about what they're saying. I follow all the main party leaders, it doesn't mean that I approve of them or like them.

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u/howlingwelshman 4d ago

I have quite a few people in my life who have transitioned. One in particular is so much happier and confident I 100% believe it was the right thing for her.

Others I feel they did it because it was an answer to a problem that they couldn't find a solution for. They were depressed, lonely and introverted and in all honesty soon after transitioning they went back to being depressed, lonely and introverted. Transitioning was an attempt to find happiness because they were not happy with who they were. Unfortunately it didn't fix it for them and they are still unhappy.

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u/DontUseThisUsername 5d ago edited 5d ago

I agree people living how they want isn't an issue. There are real people that want to be dogs, chairs and cars. It's all equally fine if they want to address themselves as such, and I'm sure they can find supportive people to live like that, but that fringe topic shouldn't be addressed in school (outside of a psychology class) as something kids should consider.

What should be taught is to be respectful. Not being forced to see a person as a dog, but not bullying or harassing because of difference or mental illness.

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u/Amekyras 5d ago

Who? Who wants to be a dog, a chair, or a car, and is doing so insistently, persistently, and consistently (the standards we apply to gender dysphoria)?

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u/DontUseThisUsername 5d ago edited 5d ago

Does it matter who? It's acceptable and comparable for the same reasons. Wanting to be a dog for a day or wanting to be a dog for life doesn't change that you're not a dog. It's just diagnosed as a more serious mental condition if they permanently see themselves that way.

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u/Amekyras 5d ago

You can understand how this is completely different, right?

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u/DontUseThisUsername 5d ago edited 5d ago

It would be a bit different if trans just meant people wanted to be treated and conform to the societal standards of the opposite sex. Wear a dress, act girly etc. Those are social inventions. That's not the case though. Gender and sex are conflated. Man and Male are conflated. Sex on ID's can be changed, not just gender. People get implants and sexual organs changed. People are always pointing out biological blurred lines. Links to male or female brains being trapped in the opposite gendered body etc.

This isn't just an attempt to redefine the link between the terms "Man"/"Woman" and Sex (Male/Female). It's trying to redefine someone's sex as they choose, even if it's under the guise of social constructs. Hence why changing biological species is perfectly similar.

On a side note "redefining someone's sex as they choose" is actually perfectly fine and I can see a future where this is possible. It's just not possible now.

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u/Amekyras 5d ago

I mean, it all depends on how you define things like sex. One of the theories I find convincing is the idea that our brains have a neural map of our bodies (this is why phantom limb syndrome occurs for example), and that for trans people the neural map is simply just not quite right.

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u/Grey_Belkin 5d ago

is not easily psychologically reversible

Neither is growing up ashamed and scared to tell anyone you're trans, with the only time you ever hear about trans people existing being when they're being ridiculed and demonised.

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u/potpan0 Black Country 5d ago

We've got to the point now where people are arguing that being respectful towards children is bad for them, while making them fearful of their own feelings and emotions is good for them. Actual insanity.

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u/Grey_Belkin 5d ago

Basically any potential damage to cis people is magnified 1000 times, and any real, already happening damage to trans people is brushed off as irrelevant.

They're more worried about a cis kid being embarrassed by having mistakenly thought they might be trans than about all the trans kids being constantly bombarded with anti-trans messages from politicians and public figures telling them they shouldn't exist.

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u/potpan0 Black Country 5d ago

They're more worried about a cis kid being embarrassed by having thought they might be trans

Rather they're worried about themselves being embarrassed by having to think about their child coming out as trans, or at least their child not sharing the same nasty views as them.

That's what a lot of this boils down to, people who can theoretically tolerate gay people or trans people existing in abstract, but are terrified of the idea that their own child won't just be a mirror image of themselves. Because fundamentally they view their child as an accessory rather than an independent human being.

You see this in a lot of sex education stuff too. When you try and explain to people that it's important to teach young people about sex and relationships so that they know if someone close to them is trying to be inappropriate with them, they go 'well I would never groom my child!' and take it as a personal insult. It's always about their own feelings rather than their children's wellbeing.

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u/cloche_du_fromage 5d ago

Have you got any examples of this bombardment of messages from politicians and public figures telling trans people they shouldn't exist?

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u/Grey_Belkin 5d ago

Too many to name. Every time they say "I/we know what a woman is" they are saying trans people don't exist. Everyone who says being trans is a social contagion is both saying it isn't real and comparing it to disease. Trans children hear and see everything that's being said about them.

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u/cloche_du_fromage 5d ago

'I know what a woman is' doesn't mean 'trans people shouldn't exist'.

It means an mtf trans isn't the same as a biological woman.

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u/AJFierce 5d ago

This is an anti-trans line of attack.

Asking people to use a different name for you and different pronouns for you is what social transitioning is, and it is reversible and changeable.

It IS unlikely you want to do that unless you're pretty sure you want to transition already. Pushing back against people insisting it's just a phase is also solved by... not insisting it's just a phase. A sort of unbothered acceptance is the best way to give a kid a chance to explore what it feels like to be called her instead of him, or Kevin instead of Kaylee, without forcing them into a defensive posture.

The idea that trying out a new name and new pronouns is in itself a sort of cognitohazard is an anti-trans line of attack, and whether you're repeating it without knowing it or actively using it it's important people reading this see it identified as such.

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u/Darq_At 5d ago

A sort of unbothered acceptance is the best way to give a kid a chance to explore what it feels like to be called her instead of him, or Kevin instead of Kaylee, without forcing them into a defensive posture.

Exactly. All these people saying "we must protect our children from this thing by telling them it is bad and wrong".

Have they ever met a child?! I can think of no way to make something sound cooler than to insist that it's bad.

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u/hobo_fapstronaut 5d ago

Best way to truly test your child's commitment to a trans identity. 100% support bordering on parental cringe. If the kid still commits after their parents tell them it's "the coolest thing ever totally lit skibbidi toilet yo" then that identity is absolutely locked in.

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u/Saiing 5d ago

This is an anti-trans line of attack.

No it's fucking not. He/she/they are just saying two different things are not the same, which is true. I'm so fucking tired of everything-all-the-fucking-time being classified as transphobic. It completely damages the trans-positive argument with this endless crying wolf for no logical reason.

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u/AJFierce 5d ago

Imagine how tired we trans people are. "Using a different name and pronouns is psychologically damaging!" Is nonsense and it's a new line of attack, from the last year or so, that has no evidence at all behind it and that well intentioned people are swallowing whole.

I'm not saying this person is anti-trans, just that they have- quite possibly inadvertently- regurgitated an anti-trans attack line they were probably sold as an interesting fact.

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u/Saiing 4d ago

What they said is NOTHING LIKE you represented their argument as. They said once you've committed to change and everyone has started calling you by different names, pronouns, identified you as a different gender etc. it's not an easy thing to just to go back. It was a simple and fair observation about false equivalence.

At no point did they mention anything about "Using a different name and pronouns is psychologically damaging!". Your words and your ideas.

If you want to stop being tired, stop looking for evil in everything and then being upset about your own wrong interpretation. That's just fucking tiring for everyone and sadly when it comes to trans rights it's absolutely pervasive.

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u/AJFierce 4d ago

It's only as big a deal to change back as we make it to change the first time. If people cry and wail and gnash their teeth and you had to fight for it, maybe a little harder to eat crow if it turns out you'd be happier as you were.

I can spot an anti-trans attack line in the wild, so I think I'll keep going as I am? But thank you for coming online and telling me that I'm overreacting and should calm down and stop making myself upset. What a freah approach! I'd simply never considered it before.

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u/Saiing 4d ago

I  can spot an anti-trans attack line in the wild

That's the whole point. You can't, but you think anyone who makes a general point is against you. The ridiculous thing about the rabid pro-trans mindset (and I mean people like yourself and not most people who just accept trans people and are happy for others to be whoever they want to be) is that you think everything is an attack and you massively damage the cause by wailing about it all the time, when it's not there.

Delusional paranoia is such an appealing way to be, right? But if it's your chosen path, who am I to argue?

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u/AJFierce 4d ago

Thank you, for "rabid" and your expert opinion on how we trans folk might best organize and react for our cause of liberation.

If I might offer feedback? Stamping in like a petulant child to tell me I'm an idiot doing things like an idiot does not endear you to me, or make me seriously entertain your opinion. You have angry chihuahua energy. I feel yipped at.

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u/Saiing 3d ago

Thank you, for "rabid" and your expert opinion on how we trans folk might best organize and react for our cause of liberation.

You're welcome. It might help the move things forward a lot more if you actually took the advice instead of crying wolf and using inflammatory language about being "attacked" every time someone makes a general point which isn't even intended or even means what you think it does. It happens over and over again in this debate and it achieves nothing for you except turning people off from an otherwise valid cause.

to tell me I'm an idiot doing things like an idiot does not endear you to me

The fact that you think I care about endearing myself to you or whether you will "entertain" my opinion says everything about your perceived sense of self-importance. Tone it down a bit, get some perspective, stop with the kneejerk persecution complex and you might find people actually take your views MORE seriously.

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u/Crowf3ather 5d ago

Yes, and children are not capable of socially transitioning as they are not mature enough. Just as many kids will be legitimately thinking they are actually a Samuel instead of a Samantha, s kids who are doing it because they think its cool, or they're just taking the piss, or they think it'd be something interesting to do.

Now how are we meant to sort between the children who are doing it for legitimate reasons, and those who are not?

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u/AJFierce 5d ago

Hear me out: we let them all do it.

If they are just thinking it's cool, it'll cause gender dysphoria rather than alleviate it and they'll stop. If they're just taking the piss, they'll eventually lose interest in the joke. If they just think it would be interesting then why not let them try it? Most kids are firmly opposed to the idea of it. Maybe let the ones you aren't find out a bit about themselves.

There's nothing wrong with a kid being trans or growing up into a trans adult.

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u/Bellebaby97 3d ago

I dressed as a goth for a large part of my teenage years, turns out, I am not in fact, a goth in my adult life. Do you know who I damaged by dying my hair red, wearing eyeliner to my eyebrows and insisting people called me 'raven'? Absolutely no one, and as an adult we get a giggle out of how we all acted as teens when we tried out new identities and made our hobbies our whole personality.

Let kids cut or grow their hair and try out a new name, it's nothing new in the slightest, doesn't take maturity and it doesn't damage them. And if a trans teen decides they're not in fact trans as an adult then that's totally fine too. However regret rates for transition are tiny, certainly less than regret rates for being a goth or getting Justin beibers haircut

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u/Ok-Blackberry-3534 5d ago

I've got nothing against them actually teaching trans-identity in schools if that's best, but "unbothered acceptance" sounds like a lower bar than that, if anything. It's more like 'don't teach it and if someone wants to use a different name or pronouns, respect it'.

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u/gophercuresself 5d ago

Unbothered acceptance is how you should treat people, it doesn't refer to what kids should be taught in school

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u/Logical_Hare 5d ago

This is a silly hair-split. You have to talk about these things. Kids will ask why a kid who "used to be a girl" wants to be addressed as a boy, or vice versa, and how that all works. Refusing to talk about it is just asking for confusion and bullying.

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u/Ok-Blackberry-3534 5d ago

How is this a response to what I wrote?

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u/Logical_Hare 5d ago

Don't teach it and if someone wants to use a different name or pronouns, respect it.

Kids won't respect others' new names or pronouns if we refuse to explain what that's all about, which necessarily involves teaching some basics about gender and acknowledging that trans people exist. 'Don't teach about it, but tell the kids to respect it' simply won't work.

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u/ItsFuckingScience 5d ago

This is an anti-trans line of attack.

I disagree. I’d identify as a pro-trans person for what it’s worth. I hate that the response to any civil disagreement on this issue is to label it as an attack

Asking people to use a different name for you and different pronouns for you is what social transitioning is, and it is reversible and changeable.

Yes I agree. I never said it wasn’t changeable. But what I am saying is that socially transitioning at a school should be considered equivalent to a psychological / medical intervention and should not take place without the child being seen or under supervision of a psychologist/ medical professional.

Personally if an adult friend or colleague asked me to call them by a different name and pronouns I’d be happy to

The idea that trying out a new name and new pronouns is in itself a sort of cognitohazard is an anti-trans line of attack, and whether you're repeating it without knowing it or actively using it it's important people reading this see it identified as such.

I think you’re significantly downplaying a social transition as “trying out a new name and pronouns”.

Socially transitioning “may have significant effects in terms of psychological functioning and longer term outcomes” - Cass Review 2024

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u/AJFierce 5d ago

First: I am not saying you are anti-trans, glad you're on our side. What I'm saying is you have repeated a fairly new anti-trans position that I am familiar with that has started cropping up over the past few months- if you're taking it seriously you have been duped.

It absolutely should not be considered a medical intervention requiring the sign-off of a medical professional. That is, respectfully, bonkers. Nobody needs permission from a doctor to try a new name. No trans person needs permission from a psychiatrist to say "hey would you call me she/her, like a girl, for a bit? I wanna see how it feels" and it is bananas to suggest that it should be otherwise. Should we also have psychiatric interventions when a person with a doctorate chooses to use the gender-neutral title of doctor?

Oh, the Cass review is where you got it! That's where this mad idea started! Right, that makes sense. Allow ne to be entirely clear: the goal of the Cass review was to justify treating trans people worse. Trans people warned about this from the getgo, the evidence was cherry picked and the review worked woth Ron Desantis's team and anti-trans "charities" but no trans charities.

If you support the Cass review you're neither pro-trans nor neutral on trans people, I'm afraid. You are against our freedom, our liberation and our existence.

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u/ItsFuckingScience 5d ago

Have you even read the Cass Review?

For you to give that assessment of it is just so completely inaccurate from what I understand of it

It seems entirely reasonable and focused on a review of available evidence

Have you even read the recommendations or conclusions?

To just out of hand dismiss it as an extreme right wing plot to attack trans people is just wild.

The British Psychological Society commended the review as "thorough and sensitive", in light of the complex and controversial nature of the subject.[77]

The Royal College of Psychiatrists, the main professional organisation of British psychiatrists, welcomed the report and strongly agreed with its recommendations. They supported the emphasis on a holistic and person-centred approach and research to improve the evidence basis for treatment protocols.

The Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the professional body for British paediatricians, thanked Cass and her team for their "massive undertaking".

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u/AJFierce 5d ago

Yes, I have read it. Front to back. I'm a politically active trans woman in the UK.

World Professional Association for Transgender Health:

“Regardless of what Dr. Cass’ intentions may or may not have been, the Cass Review process itself intentionally and explicitly excluded any oversight from patients and their families and trans healthcare experts, and its content is not supported by a robust methodology. The Cass Review relies on selective and inconsistent use of evidence, and its recommendations often do not follow from the data presented in the systematic reviews. The Cass Review deprives young trans and gender diverse people of the high-quality care they deserve and causes immense distress and harm to both young patients and their families.”

European Professional Association for Transgender Health:

"...while waiting for research results, not providing transgender adolescent care that may include puberty blockers and hormones to adolescents who experience gender incongruence is not a neutral act given that it may have immediate as well as lifelong harmful effects for the young transgender person. Also, asking transgender adolescents to participate in research as the only way to receive puberty blockers, as Cass recommends, is unethical.”

Endocrine Society:

“NHS England’s recent report, the Cass Review, does not contain any new research that would contradict the recommendations made in our Clinical Practice Guideline on gender-affirming care. […] Although the scientific landscape has not changed significantly, misinformation about gender-affirming care is being politicized.”

American Academy of Pediatrics:

“The AAP’s gender-affirming care policy, like all our standing guidance, is grounded in evidence and science. […] What we’re seeing more and more is that the politically infused public discourse is getting this wrong and it’s impacting the way that doctors care for their patients. […] Politicians have inserted themselves into the exam room, and this is dangerous for both physicians and for families.”

(There's more and links to primary sources here: https://ruthpearce.net/2024/04/16/whats-wrong-with-the-cass-review-a-round-up-of-commentary-and-evidence/)

I don't think it's extreme right wing. I think Britain's politics and institutions are much more transphobic across the board than you'll find on other countries, left wing and right wing.

Like I'm sorry to be the one to tell you but the Cass review is not, and has not been received as, a neutral document. It makes up in particular that "fact" you dropped, that social transition is a dangerous, risky, and untried medical intervention that could warp a kid's mind forever and send them down a dangerous path (the path that leads to a healthy, happy trans grown-up).

You want section 12 of the Cass Review, and I want to draw your attention to how a trans kid possibly growing up into a healthy happy trans adult is framed:

"There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Some consider that it may improve mental health and social and educational participation for children experiencing gender-related distress. Others consider that a child who might have desisted at puberty is more likely to have an altered trajectory, culminating in medical intervention which will have life-long implications."

An altered trajectory, and a lifetime of nasty trans medicine, if you don't stick to your guns and refuse to call your Sandra Steven instead. This is how the Cass Review talks about citizens like me.

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u/regretfullyjafar 5d ago

What is your proof that this is not “psychologically reversible”?

The argument from anti-trans activists changed from “people shouldn’t transition young because you can’t reverse the medical changes” to “you can’t reverse social transitioning!” pretty quickly.

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u/potpan0 Black Country 5d ago

The argument from anti-trans activists changed from “people shouldn’t transition young because you can’t reverse the medical changes” to “you can’t reverse social transitioning!” pretty quickly.

It's called a Motte-and-bailey argument, and you see transphobes use it a lot.

They start off with arguments which they think are easier to defend (the Motte): 'we only want fairness in sports', 'we don't want children having permanent surgeries', 'we just want a debate'. They're all arguments which, on their own, are difficult to argue against.

But, when pushed, it turns out their actual beliefs are much wider and less easy to defend than that (the Bailey), and often boil down to a broader rejection of trans people being accepted in society.

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u/Basteir 5d ago

I think you must have that reversed because you'd attack the easy to attack bailey before you assault the motte.

I think someone retreats to the motte after being challemged and losing their bailey.

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u/potpan0 Black Country 5d ago

I think you must have that reversed because you'd attack the easy to attack bailey before you assault the motte.

Yeah... that's the point. They make arguments that are easy to defend first (the Motte) despite really believing in the harder to defend points (the Bailey)

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u/Basteir 5d ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy

I checked, no, they definitely put forth the bailey first and retreat to the motte when challenged.

I think you get the point and your terminology is right but the order is wrong compared to how this analogy is usually employed.

Anyway I agree with your main point with respect to transphobia.

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u/ItsFuckingScience 5d ago

Why would you deliberately misquote me? I never said it was not psychologically reversible but it does have a significant impact on a child. a social transition is not simply some minor event that is part of typical childhood self exploration and no big deal to encourage.

I have read the Cass review which says from an NHS perspective it’s important to view social transition as an active intervention as it may have significant effects on the child or younger person in terms of their psychological functioning and longer term outcomes

The report also says there is no clear evidence in general with regards to positive or negative mental health outcomes associated with socially transitioning

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u/Caddy666 Back in Greater Manchester. 5d ago

yeah it is. up until they go as far as physically changing themselves via surgery or hormones, they might as well be dying their hair.

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u/ItsFuckingScience 5d ago

I simply disagree. It’s a significant psychological change to go through to view yourself as a different gender identity and have all of your peers and authority figures refer to you as such. Much different than just trying a new hair colour

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u/bellpunk 5d ago

yes, yes it is, lol

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u/shlerm Pembrokeshire 5d ago

I mean, it's ok to ask people to speak to you in a way you find respectful, regardless if that is about your gender identity. The biggest problem with transitioning is the trauma caused by others unwilling to accept what you are thinking or feeling about yourself. The same trauma if you're in an environment that constantly fails to treat you with respect.

It's ultimately down to respect and the two beliefs that respect is earned, or that everyone deserves it. For some people, they view transitioning as something that doesn't earn enough respect to treat it so, allowing them to disregard behaviours they deem as disrespectful. Unfortunately believing respect is something to earn only encourages other beliefs about class.

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u/Khenir East Sussex 5d ago

“As a New person…”

Opinion discarded, you understand nothing about queerness, we really need to move on from “I don’t know who you are anymore/you aren’t who I raised/I can’t believe I didn’t know my own kid” bullshit, its harmful to kids and its harmful to parents, shame on you.

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u/kalasea2001 5d ago

Sure it is. Kids decide things for themselves than reverse it all the time. It's a perfectly normal part of growing up, and to deny it, or worse what you're doing i- making it a bigger deal than it is - only further helps to stigmatize.

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u/whosenose 5d ago

I think you’ll find that in the 80s a boy wearing a skirt was considered considerably less dangerous than a boy kissing a boy.

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u/Pabus_Alt 5d ago

So because people are bigots, we should just... give in?

Even more, who cares if it is a phase? Maybe it is! doesn't make it any less valid.

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u/continuousQ 4d ago

You could easily lose contact with 100% of your peers and authority figures when transitioning from school to work.

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u/not_good_for_much 4d ago edited 4d ago

If someone is going to this extent in socially transitioning, then on a certain level it becomes a losing game, since taking this self-expression away from them (let alone telling them that it's wrong of them to even feel a desire to do it) is also not going to be "easily psychologically reversible."

It can do pretty serious emotional damage, in fact, which becomes very quickly apparent when you go and talk about this with LGBT+ people who weren't able to be themselves growing up.

It also should be noted that much of your point revolves less around children actually socially transitioning, and more around people being shit to them because of it.

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 5d ago

Hi!. Please try to avoid personal attacks, as this discourages participation. You can help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person.

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u/quarky_uk 5d ago

There is a probably a biological basis for homosexuality at least to some degree.

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u/AlDente 5d ago

Identifying as gay, and practicing being gay, doesn’t involve life altering hormone treatments or surgery.

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u/Darq_At 5d ago

Social transition does not involve hormones or surgery.

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u/Khenir East Sussex 5d ago

Neither does socially transitioning.

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u/smeeti 5d ago

But what if they medically transition?

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u/CitrusRabborts 5d ago

You can't, cross sex hormones are not given to under 18s and never have been, and puberty blockers are currently banned. Even when puberty blockers weren't banned, there was a considerable wait time, so it's not something that could be done on a whim.

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u/dress_like_a_tree 5d ago

Can’t experiment with chopping your cock off

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u/CitrusRabborts 5d ago

Yeah famously doctor's love lopping off teenagers cocks. Definitely not completely illegal or anything

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

[deleted]

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u/marlstown 5d ago

Touché

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u/Constant-Parsley3609 5d ago

If kids want to experiment, then they will.

We don't need schools to encourage certain forms of experimentation. Let the teenagers themselves decide what kind of rebellion tickles their fancy. If it doesn't occur to them without the teacher's input, then it wasn't for them in the first place.

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u/Darq_At 5d ago

It's not being "encouraged" to let children know that trans people exist, and who they are.

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u/Constant-Parsley3609 5d ago

Right....

So what's your issue?

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u/Darq_At 5d ago

The idea that trans people are unmentionable, and that their existence should not be taught.

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u/Constant-Parsley3609 5d ago

Nobody has an issue with kids knowing that trans people exist. they just don't want trans ideology taught in schools.

Just like nobody has an issue with kids knowing that Muslims exist, but they don't want teachers teaching the Qur'an as fact.

It's perfectly acceptable to explain to children that some people believe they were born in the wrong body. I really don't think anyone is against that.

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u/Darq_At 5d ago

What exactly is "trans ideology" other than "trans people exist, they're not insane, they're pretty normal people, please treat them with basic human decency"?

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u/Constant-Parsley3609 5d ago edited 5d ago

What exactly is "trans ideology"

That's a bit like asking "what exactly is Christianity"?

It's the things that Christians generally believe in. There are different branches of Christianity and they disagree on various things. Generally it centers around Jesus and god, but the specifics vary depending on who you talk to. Two Christians might not even really agree on what god fundamentally is.

Trans ideology is just a term for the things that trans people tend to believe. Most of it centers around their idea of "gender".

Two trans people may disagree on what gender fundamentally means. An indescribable sense of self? Personality? Temperament? Brain type? Some internal essence? Or even just a description of how you act?

I can list some of the common beliefs in trans ideology, but for most of these points you can find people within the belief system that disagree with that specific point. I'll try to speak in general terms, but it's impossible to be completely universal about such a varied belief system.

Trans ideology generally states that everyone has a gender. This gender is thought to be eternal and unchanging. It is inseparable from who you are.

.

Trans ideology repurposes terms such as man, boy, girl and woman to describe these genders.

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Trans ideology states that these repurposed terms must only be used to describe gender. Using these repurposed words in any other way is seen as heresy.

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Misidentifying another person's gender is called misgendering and is deemed to be a serious offense.

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As gender is impossible to change, trans ideology generally views any apparent change in gender as a correction of prior misunderstanding or self deception. For example, if Bob's gender is that of a boy and then later is that if a girl, trans ideology generally asserts that the gender did not change. Girl was always the true gender of Bob, even when Bob previously stated that he was a boy.

.

As I said before the understanding of what exactly gender is tends to vary, but regardless of its nature trans ideology places enormous importance upon it and there is no test for identifying what a person's gender is. Since gender is in some way ethereal or invisible, there are no objective measurements or identifiable qualities that can be used to prove which gender a person is.

.

Trans ideology believes that a person's gender can only be identified by the person in question. Furthermore, if a person makes a statement about what gender they are, that statement should be deemed true. More extreme branches of trans ideology state that self identification is true by definition. The act of saying "I am a boy" makes one a boy by definition. (This comes with the caveat that one's future self always takes priority. If I claim to be a boy today, then that statement is fact if and only if I do not claim to be a girl at a future date).

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Sex and gender are so closely related as to often be indistinguishable, but so distinctly different as to be completely separate. Different branches of trans ideology approach this apparent contradiction in different ways.

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A girl/woman gender is strongly "aligned" with a female body. Whereas, a boy/man gender is strongly "aligned" with a male body. Other genders exist, but the question of their alignment is less clear.

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Misalignment between gender and sex is sometimes seen as a disaster. Usually trans ideology believes that such misalignments must be corrected. As gender is eternal and unchanging, correcting this alignment must in some way address the person's sex, but this correction will vary between different branches of the belief system.

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Trans ideology believes that alignment between sex and gender is a path to enlightenment or at the very least it will stave off depression. In contrast, misalignment is an almost certain cause of misery

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The unfortunate fact that sex can't be changed (combined with the belief that gender is eternal) makes total alignment impossible, but partially alignment is thought to be obtained if one take on characteristics of the other sex.

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Different branches of trans ideology disagree on exactly what counts as a characteristic of the opposite sex. Medical intervention to change ones physical appearance and hormonal makeup is generally seen as a path to better alignment.

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Some branches believe this alignment can also come from "living as" the opposite sex would live. For example, if your gender is woman, then adopting female characteristics will improve alignment. Make up, for example, is thought to be a female characteristic and therefore women that wear makeup will have greater alignment with the female sex.

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If you have a woman gender, then creating scenarios in which you are treated as if you were a female improves alignment a great deal. This is why many transwomen wish to enter female only spaces.

.

More recent branches of the trans ideology, seem to view sex and gender quite differently. They argue that gender is always manifested in some biological marker of some sort. In this way, they argue that the biological sex of a trans person is automatically the sex that best aligns with their gender. Ie trans women are female. (This of course, calls into question the need for further alignment. Why would one need to align something that is already aligned?).

This only scratches the surface, but these are the kinds of beliefs we are discussing when we say "trans ideology". As I said before, for most of these points there will be a branch of the trans ideology that disagrees. There are many many interpretations and I can't write all of them simultaneously

I believe in freedom of religion and I am perfectly fine with people believing these things. I just don't want schools telling students' that their bodies might be in need of "correction". Just as I do not want students to be told that they need to pray to God to get forgiveness for their sins.

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u/Darq_At 5d ago

The detailed metaphysics of gender are not being taught to anyone. And are not being proposed to be taught to anyone. Even getting into specifics, the level of detail is likely not much deeper than "people have a gender, the most common are male and female, but there are non-binary people too, and some people realise that their gender isn't the one that they originally assumed".

I believe in freedom of religion

Irrelevant, not a religion.

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u/Constant-Parsley3609 5d ago

You don't have to call it a religion if you don't want to, but it is a belief system.

Since the belief system demands that nonbelievers conform to its presuppositions in every way, it has leaked into many institutions as indisputable fact.

Many of these might not be directly taught, but they are assumed implicitly and certain language and concepts are taught to reinforce those assumptions as total fact.

Even your statement (which I think is very mild in comparison to some of the things I'm more worried about) presupposes that "everyone has a gender". I am perfectly happy for schools to teach that some people believe in gender followed by some bare bones explanation of what that belief might entail, but many people don't believe in gender. Just as many people don't believe in souls.

If all you wanted to do was inform students that trans people exist, then you wouldn't need to introduce gender as a fact at all. You'd only need to do that if you were trying to convert people.

I think there's a rather transparently hope that the students don't fit in as well and that don't conform to the stereotypical ideas of how their sex acts will hear about this concept of gender and being pursuing alignment.

Just as many Christians hope that introducing the concept of sin to young students will convince those that are feeling guilty in some way to start pursuing Christ.

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u/limeflavoured Hucknall 5d ago

The idea that you don't want school to even teach that trans people exist?

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u/Constant-Parsley3609 5d ago

Nobody said that.

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u/limeflavoured Hucknall 5d ago

Then what exactly should schools be allowed to say?

Bear in mind that Section 28 only banned "promotion" of being gay, but in reality that led to it not being mentioned at all for fear of accidentally saying something that parents would see as promotion.

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u/Constant-Parsley3609 5d ago

What do you want schools to say?

I don't think it would be particularly difficult to approach it in the same way that we approach religion.

Nobody fears mentioning Hinduism in schools, but they also don't preach Hinduism in schools. I'd be curious if there are already laws around the treatment of religion in schools, because the current treatment of religion in schools is about spot on for what I'd expect for the trans ideology.

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u/lem0nhe4d 5d ago

Mate how many queer people will tell you they knew as kids or teenagers but didn't come out till they were adults due to fear or thinking there was something wrong about them because of how they feel?

Telling people it's okay to be queer and nothing is wrong with them doesn't encourage non queer people to be queer. It just tells queer people it's safe to be themselves.