Keir Starmer says he doesn’t want schools teaching young people about transgender identities

[u/PinkNews]

https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/06/25/keir-starmer-trans-education-general-election-2024/

[u/Darq_At]

The idea that trans people are unmentionable, and that their existence should not be taught.

[u/Constant-Parsley3609 → u/Darq_At]

Nobody has an issue with kids knowing that trans people exist. they just don't want trans ideology taught in schools.

Just like nobody has an issue with kids knowing that Muslims exist, but they don't want teachers teaching the Qur'an as fact.

It's perfectly acceptable to explain to children that some people believe they were born in the wrong body. I really don't think anyone is against that.

[u/Darq_At → u/Constant-Parsley3609]

What exactly is "trans ideology" other than "trans people exist, they're not insane, they're pretty normal people, please treat them with basic human decency"?

[u/Constant-Parsley3609 → u/Darq_At]

What exactly is "trans ideology"

That's a bit like asking "what exactly is Christianity"?

It's the things that Christians generally believe in. There are different branches of Christianity and they disagree on various things. Generally it centers around Jesus and god, but the specifics vary depending on who you talk to. Two Christians might not even really agree on what god fundamentally is.

Trans ideology is just a term for the things that trans people tend to believe. Most of it centers around their idea of "gender".

Two trans people may disagree on what gender fundamentally means. An indescribable sense of self? Personality? Temperament? Brain type? Some internal essence? Or even just a description of how you act?

I can list some of the common beliefs in trans ideology, but for most of these points you can find people within the belief system that disagree with that specific point. I'll try to speak in general terms, but it's impossible to be completely universal about such a varied belief system.

Trans ideology generally states that everyone has a gender. This gender is thought to be eternal and unchanging. It is inseparable from who you are.

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Trans ideology repurposes terms such as man, boy, girl and woman to describe these genders.

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Trans ideology states that these repurposed terms must only be used to describe gender. Using these repurposed words in any other way is seen as heresy.

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Misidentifying another person's gender is called misgendering and is deemed to be a serious offense.

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As gender is impossible to change, trans ideology generally views any apparent change in gender as a correction of prior misunderstanding or self deception. For example, if Bob's gender is that of a boy and then later is that if a girl, trans ideology generally asserts that the gender did not change. Girl was always the true gender of Bob, even when Bob previously stated that he was a boy.

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As I said before the understanding of what exactly gender is tends to vary, but regardless of its nature trans ideology places enormous importance upon it and there is no test for identifying what a person's gender is. Since gender is in some way ethereal or invisible, there are no objective measurements or identifiable qualities that can be used to prove which gender a person is.

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Trans ideology believes that a person's gender can only be identified by the person in question. Furthermore, if a person makes a statement about what gender they are, that statement should be deemed true. More extreme branches of trans ideology state that self identification is true by definition. The act of saying "I am a boy" makes one a boy by definition. (This comes with the caveat that one's future self always takes priority. If I claim to be a boy today, then that statement is fact if and only if I do not claim to be a girl at a future date).

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Sex and gender are so closely related as to often be indistinguishable, but so distinctly different as to be completely separate. Different branches of trans ideology approach this apparent contradiction in different ways.

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A girl/woman gender is strongly "aligned" with a female body. Whereas, a boy/man gender is strongly "aligned" with a male body. Other genders exist, but the question of their alignment is less clear.

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Misalignment between gender and sex is sometimes seen as a disaster. Usually trans ideology believes that such misalignments must be corrected. As gender is eternal and unchanging, correcting this alignment must in some way address the person's sex, but this correction will vary between different branches of the belief system.

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Trans ideology believes that alignment between sex and gender is a path to enlightenment or at the very least it will stave off depression. In contrast, misalignment is an almost certain cause of misery

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The unfortunate fact that sex can't be changed (combined with the belief that gender is eternal) makes total alignment impossible, but partially alignment is thought to be obtained if one take on characteristics of the other sex.

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Different branches of trans ideology disagree on exactly what counts as a characteristic of the opposite sex. Medical intervention to change ones physical appearance and hormonal makeup is generally seen as a path to better alignment.

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Some branches believe this alignment can also come from "living as" the opposite sex would live. For example, if your gender is woman, then adopting female characteristics will improve alignment. Make up, for example, is thought to be a female characteristic and therefore women that wear makeup will have greater alignment with the female sex.

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If you have a woman gender, then creating scenarios in which you are treated as if you were a female improves alignment a great deal. This is why many transwomen wish to enter female only spaces.

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More recent branches of the trans ideology, seem to view sex and gender quite differently. They argue that gender is always manifested in some biological marker of some sort. In this way, they argue that the biological sex of a trans person is automatically the sex that best aligns with their gender. Ie trans women are female. (This of course, calls into question the need for further alignment. Why would one need to align something that is already aligned?).

This only scratches the surface, but these are the kinds of beliefs we are discussing when we say "trans ideology". As I said before, for most of these points there will be a branch of the trans ideology that disagrees. There are many many interpretations and I can't write all of them simultaneously

I believe in freedom of religion and I am perfectly fine with people believing these things. I just don't want schools telling students' that their bodies might be in need of "correction". Just as I do not want students to be told that they need to pray to God to get forgiveness for their sins.

[u/Darq_At → u/Constant-Parsley3609]

The detailed metaphysics of gender are not being taught to anyone. And are not being proposed to be taught to anyone. Even getting into specifics, the level of detail is likely not much deeper than "people have a gender, the most common are male and female, but there are non-binary people too, and some people realise that their gender isn't the one that they originally assumed".

I believe in freedom of religion

Irrelevant, not a religion.

[u/Constant-Parsley3609 → u/Darq_At]

You don't have to call it a religion if you don't want to, but it is a belief system.

Since the belief system demands that nonbelievers conform to its presuppositions in every way, it has leaked into many institutions as indisputable fact.

Many of these might not be directly taught, but they are assumed implicitly and certain language and concepts are taught to reinforce those assumptions as total fact.

Even your statement (which I think is very mild in comparison to some of the things I'm more worried about) presupposes that "everyone has a gender". I am perfectly happy for schools to teach that some people believe in gender followed by some bare bones explanation of what that belief might entail, but many people don't believe in gender. Just as many people don't believe in souls.

If all you wanted to do was inform students that trans people exist, then you wouldn't need to introduce gender as a fact at all. You'd only need to do that if you were trying to convert people.

I think there's a rather transparently hope that the students don't fit in as well and that don't conform to the stereotypical ideas of how their sex acts will hear about this concept of gender and being pursuing alignment.

Just as many Christians hope that introducing the concept of sin to young students will convince those that are feeling guilty in some way to start pursuing Christ.

[u/Darq_At → u/Constant-Parsley3609]

You don't have to call it a religion if you don't want to, but it is a belief system.

Literally every theory could be described as a "belief system" then. Kids are getting taught physics? Belief system. So ridiculous that people are demanded to conform to ridiculous concepts like "gravity"!

That people have a gender identity is the leading contemporary theory of gender.

I think there's a rather transparently hope that the students don't fit in as well and that don't conform to the stereotypical ideas of how their sex acts will hear about this concept of gender and being pursuing alignment.

You are assigning malicious intent to people who have none. That is entirely a you problem, not a them problem.

boystrous girls and effeminate boys in the class will hear about gender and being to question if they are in the wrong body.

That's not how it works, and not what trans people generally think, anyway. Gender identity is not gender roles.

[u/Constant-Parsley3609 → u/Darq_At]

I gave you a long long list of beliefs that this belief system asserts.

You can not honestly tell me that you think those points are scientific in nature.

Science tells us very little about this. People are looking into it, but much of the research is shakey conjecture or even worse just defining ever more complex jargon to describe the little that we do know.

It is clear that some people are distressed and feel that they would be less distressed if they had been born the opposite sex.

It is clear that many of those people feel less distress if others pretend that they are the sex they desire to be.

But trans ideology is not merely acknowledging the existence of this distress and even the proponents of it disagree on many of the points that I listed. And it is entirely possible that many of the assertions made by trans ideology actually increase the amount of distress felt by the people suffering from these conditions.

People feel some level of distress when they commit bad acts (whether they are religious or not), but surely the concept of sin and the Christian beliefs surrounding it play a hand in making some feel more distress than they would otherwise.

[u/Darq_At → u/Constant-Parsley3609]

I gave you a long long list of beliefs that this belief system asserts.

No, you gave a essay written by someone who clearly takes issue with trans people. Generally, when I'm forming my opinions about an issue, I try to hear people's beliefs directly, rather than filtered through their ideological opponents who misrepresent them or portray them in the least charitable manner.

Science tells us very little about this.

That's just nonsense though. Do we know everything there is to know about gender? Not by a long shot. But we actually have done a lot of research over many decades now, both into transgender people and more broadly into gender as a whole. The existence of gender identity as a psychological phenomenon is a leading contemporary theory.

[u/Constant-Parsley3609 → u/Darq_At]

No, you gave a essay written by someone who clearly takes issue with trans people

You didn't read it, did you?

Why on earth did I bother?

ou ask what transgender ideology is as if you're asking a genuinely question, but then when I try to give you some examples of the beliefs that I'm outlining it turns out that you weren't really asking. You were just playing coy to be snarky.

Generally, when I'm forming my opinions about an issue, I try to hear people's beliefs directly,

Oh wow! Why didn't I think of that?! Oh wait. I did and I have. -_-

I have spoken to many many trans people. They believe this stuff.

That's just nonsense though. Do we know everything there is to know about gender? Not by a long shot. But we actually have done a lot of research over many decades now, both into transgender people and more broadly into gender as a whole. The existence of gender identity as a psychological phenomenon is a leading contemporary theory.

Dude, I'm not denying the existence of trans people. Science says (1) and (2). I'm not denying that we've looked into this. That doesn't mean that the presuppositions made by trans ideology are true.

1) It is clear that some people are distressed and feel that they would be less distressed if they had been born the opposite sex.

2) It is clear that many of those people feel less distress if others pretend that they are the sex they desire to be.

[u/Darq_At → u/Constant-Parsley3609]

You didn't read it, did you?

I did, actually.

You ask what transgender ideology is as if you're asking a genuinely question, but then when I try to give you some examples of the beliefs that I'm outlining it turns out that you weren't really asking. You were just playing coy to be snarky.

Except you didn't actually try and give me some examples. At least not sincerely. The screed you posted was clearly trying to portray trans people in an uncharitable manner. That much was quite obvious. It also is not entirely accurate.

Oh wow! Why didn't I think of that?! Oh wait. I did and I have. -_- I have spoken to many many trans people. They believe this stuff.

Nonsense. You are fitting other people's words into your existing prejudices. You have a bunch of "beliefs" that sorta sound like things trans people might say, so when trans people do say things, you are primed to misinterpret them in that preconceived manner.

Dude

Not your dude.

I'm not denying the existence of trans people.

I didn't say you were. Try reading again more carefully next time. It's a little cringe to accuse me of not reading, then do something like that.

[u/The_Flurr → u/Constant-Parsley3609]

Science tells us very little about this. People are looking into it, but much of the research is shakey conjecture or even worse just defining ever more complex jargon to describe the little that we do know.

You're talking out of your ass.

We have research papers validating trans identities going back 90 years at least.

[u/Constant-Parsley3609 → u/The_Flurr]

You know, the issue with popping into my comment history and randomly shouting a reply, is that you don't actually know what we are talking about here.