r/politics • u/Murky-Site7468 • 4d ago

'Chill The F**k Out': John Fetterman Urges Democrats To Stick With Joe Biden | The Pennsylvania senator reminded panicked Democrats on Friday that he too had a bad debate once, yet he went on to win his Senate seat.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-debate-john-fetterman_n_667ea850e4b0415858d6a2f1
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u/NanoDaMan 4d ago

He forgot to mention his opponent was a TV grifter who didn't really live in PA. We didn't have many options in PA.

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u/jmcgit Connecticut 4d ago

Biden's opponent is a TV grifter too

Though frankly that's probably the only reason Biden still has a chance

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u/BLF402 4d ago

If you go back and watch the debate last night Biden was more on point when it comes to the platform whereas trump was just spewing nonsense lies and self congratulatory rhetoric.

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u/jmcgit Connecticut 4d ago

Sure, but that’s not going to help him. You don’t win debates by being right, you win them by being persuasive.

Nobody expected Trump to go out there and tell the truth, but they hoped Biden would be able to expose his lies to a national audience and make him look like the clown that he is. If Biden can’t do that, it’d be nice if the candidate was someone who can.

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u/snorin 4d ago

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. How is Trump saying the same thing over again no matter the question persuasive. He just repeats I'm the best, no one has seen someone as great as me before. Biden is bad. He had nothing to say the entire time. I don't get how that is persuasive.

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u/gottago_gottago 4d ago

There are three kinds of arguments: logos, or arguments from facts and logic; ethos, or arguments from ethics and morality; and pathos, or arguments from emotion.

You're viewing the debate as argument-from-logos, but more people are persuaded by argument-from-pathos. For those people, the person that speaks more clearly, confidently, and loudly is the winner.

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u/KazzieMono 4d ago

Also known as charisma. You can be the dumbest fucking idiot on the planet, but as long as you’re charismatic and loud and you talk over everyone, people will fold.

It’s such shit. Humanity’s brains are fucked.

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u/snorin 4d ago

Necessarily your definition includes the word argument. Trump didn't have an argument. He lied in the same way essentially in the same words no matter the question. He did not present a view point, he just made things up.

That is what I don't understand. I don't know how anyone can say he won the debate, when everything he said is beyond disconnected from reality.

The only people who could say he won are those that already supported him.

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u/jmcgit Connecticut 4d ago

It’s because it’s a debate, not a quiz. You don’t need substance to win a debate. It’s like that Family Guy skit where Lois Griffin won a debate by saying 9/11 over and over again.

He won by presentation.

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u/snorin 4d ago

But he didn't present anything. That is my issue. He said the exact same thing that he always says.

I feel like I just don't get it which is frustrating to me. I want to understand.

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u/endlessupending 3d ago

If you wanna truly understand the mind of a trumpist you're gonna have to start huffing some glue, and keep huffing until he starts making sense. This may be irreversible

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u/jmcgit Connecticut 4d ago

The only thing you’re missing is the fact that the bar was so low that the repetitive garbage he brought to the table was enough to win. Biden might have smoked Trump if he was 15 years younger, but it didn’t play out that way.

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u/Shrekinator321 4d ago

Read my comment.

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u/Shrekinator321 4d ago

Because the average American isn’t that far off intelligently from the average human. And the average human is motivated by emotion and “feel” rather than facts and logic. This is why pathos is so powerful and logos is mainly used in institutes of science.

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u/IndigoHawk 4d ago

Yeah same. I left the debate knowing specific things Biden wants to do and how he's going to achieve them. For example, he's going to keep Social Security solvent by raising taxes on high earners. He's going to improve border security with additional agents, revised asylum laws, and drug scanning machines. Etc.

From Trump, all I heard was that no bad thing would happen if Trump was elected and magically everything would be fixed. Wars would end. Illegal immigrants would be gone. No idea how. Also the border is somehow responsible for all problems everywhere. Trump provided zero information and dodged all questions and clearly lost the debate.

I think maybe people don't know what debates are. Trump is loud and confident and lies about everything. I guess people think that's what debate is. That's a performance, not a debate.

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u/snorin 4d ago

He said he would end the Ukrainian war before he even was sworn in. But have no comments on what that means, what/how he would pull this amazing feat off.

He talked about abortions after birth????

And then "I'm the best👈👉 I'm the most tremendously president, some say 👌👌of all time. My statistics guy actually just gave me that stat, okay 👐 he said to me , wow, 👐 you are so tremendous, no one has ever, and Biden👌is the worst, weaponization at level no one has seen,👆 he should be in jail because I'm the best👌."

I truly do not understand how anyone can see his face and hear what he said and then be like yes, that's my guy.

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u/joshdoereddit 4d ago

I think maybe people don't know what debates are.

This. I'm not some expert on debating, but I'm pretty sure people don't know what debates actually are. Just like they don't have a decent enough understanding of how our government works. People mad that Biden didn't accomplish more probably don't understand that Congress plays a pretty substantial role in policy-making.

People these days are also lacking in critical thinking skills and nuance. That's why the GOP propaganda machine is as effective as it is. It's all soundbites.

That's what I've come to understand from the last 8 years or so.

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u/FlyingFortress26 4d ago

because the average human being is not smart.

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u/Aldrik90 4d ago

The contrast between the way the two of them speak was on display for the world to see. If trump was speaking more clearly and coherently that's all that really matters to public perception when Biden sounded like that.

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u/Jorge_Santos69 4d ago

Y’all are telling on yourselves honestly

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u/FairPudding40 4d ago

I completely agree, but I feel like that after most of these debates (people really seem to think the yeller is the winner and I do not get it -- who wants a president who yells at everyone?!)

Fortunately, as results start to trickle in, it turns out an awful lot of on-the-fence republicans think Biden did much better than they expected and are feeling a bit better about voting for him now that they saw for themselves that he's fine.

Anecdotally, I've been shocked by how many people in my circle who are anti Trump but were not going to vote for Biden have texted me and said, "You were right, he's fine." He's a quiet, kind man who's a talented politician -- we could do a heck of a lot worse for president.

And Biden didn't need help getting off stage after the whole shebang was over (Trump did).

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u/Responsible_Pizza945 3d ago

Imagine you're the average American, basically checked out on politics and not paying any attention. Here on r/politics basically everyone follows the news, but most Americans live with blinders on when it comes to political events. This is why republican messaging is so effective despite it often being flat out lies - it reaches the people who only hear about something once in a blue moon. Democrats can have ten thousand small victories on issues across the board and nobody hears about it, but Republicans get one thing and they start chanting USA.

The presidential debates are one of the few predictable times the average checked out schmuck can expect to get a general idea of their options, so a lot more people pay attention to those than to 'random political rally in a state they don't live in.'

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u/jmcgit Connecticut 4d ago

It's not just what you say, it's how you say it. Biden wasn't better enough in substance to overcome the dramatic charisma difference.

It's less that Trump was so good that he persuaded people to embrace him, as it is that Biden performed poorly enough that some people are backing away from him. Negative persuasion, you could call it.

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u/Useless 4d ago

Trump leaves an impression in peoples minds which contrasts with the impression of Biden. Some people recall numbers, people, places when they remember, some people recall feelings. Trump said not much of anything in a confident and assertive manner, which is what the feelings folks remember as the content of his speech fades, and most likely was not critically evaluated in anything but the most superficial manner. Much of human reasoning throughout history has been people having feelings then justifying them. And those people still vote.

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u/snorin 4d ago

I can understand that I think

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u/DarkKerrigor 4d ago

I wish Katie Porter would team up with some drag queens, and coach Biden on reading an opponent to filth with facts.

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u/1one1000two1thousand District Of Columbia 4d ago

Hillary won all her debates against Trump and still lost.

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u/zipzzo 4d ago

Winning debates also doesn't win elections either.

Hillary won all of her debates with Trump handily but didn't stop her from losing.

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u/SirLeaf 4d ago

Trump steamrolled Hillary. Their 3rd debate was not close. Maybe Hillary had facts on her side, but Trump won with the ooh's and ahh's that night. He had the crowd on his side. Even my family members who vote blue no matter who know that Trump outdid everyone on the debate stage in 2016.

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u/Jorge_Santos69 4d ago

No…Hillary literally won all 3 from the audience poll. You’re lying lol

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u/SirLeaf 4d ago

Not a lie to give an anecdote and say that people I know believe Trump steamrolled Hillary.

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u/Jorge_Santos69 4d ago

Lol using anecdotes from your family as evidence that Trump won the debates isn’t the winning argument you think it is

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

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u/curious_carson 3d ago

My husband and I still accuse each other of being the puppet. This is a weird time-line.

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u/SirLeaf 3d ago

Larping?

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/SirLeaf 3d ago

What do you mean by that?

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/SirLeaf 3d ago

You think I am lying about knowing people who were not in the majority of a poll?

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/Jorge_Santos69 4d ago

I mean only if you’re performing for morons is that the case

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u/Rizzpooch I voted 4d ago

Nobody expected Trump to go out there and tell the truth

But, like, that's a problem. That should be disqualifying in and of itself. Goddamnit

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u/raouldukeesq 3d ago

Of course it will help him.  Me and the other guy are voting for him for this very reason. And so are, let me check my notes, the 10s of millions of women who want freedom of choice over their own bodies. 

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u/Onslaughtered 4d ago

Yeah not how debates work so 🤷🏼‍♂️. Debates aren’t pointing out the lies and deception. It’s about answering your prompts.

Not saying either candidate looked like their peak self but at least Biden had answers vs. spewing the same lies and rhetoric by by trump