r/TheHandmaidsTale • u/Taiwan_ • 3d ago
Gay Men at Jezebels? Question
One thing that I had been thinking about recently. In Season 3 we saw Commander Winslow have a bit of an implied gay side to him, likely he was bisexual. It did get me thinking, instead of just murdering all the gay men, is it possible that some were thrown into Jezebels to satisfy some Commanders' closeted homosexuality or even threesome fantasies?
Could this possibility also extend to other LGBTQ+ groups? I can see trans women working at Jezebels as well to satisfy some Commanders who are into trans women, because I know some men love trans women for some like emasculation kinks and we all know Commanders love their power play.
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u/MoonageDayscream 3d ago
The Jezebel establishments are not there for sexual freedom, nor are they to meet every desire. they are private clubs for the Commanders to have a space where they are all complicit in many things, whey can feel free to break their rules and engage in the macho rivalry their positions would limit in the public sphere. As the society is sexually controlling the brothel aspect is prominent, and one of the most acceptable ways of breaking the rules, but there are also going to be gambling clubs, and others for various other interests Commanders must keep on the DL. In the end, it is a modern version of a gentleman's club. As homosexuality is a strict taboo, and the easiest way to dispose of a rival would be to expose that, it's gong to be a more private club than a Jezebel, one without a permanent location, to meet that need.
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u/Ashura_98 2d ago
This makes me think if Gilead might eventually develop an underground (illegal) queer world, so to speak. Were people, mostly high class men, can meet up and do all sort of otherwise illegal things, like crossdressing, having gay sex and gay relationships, etc.
As we can see in many real life examples, strict law doesn't completely eliminate the behaviours it seeks to outlaw, it just puts them away from the public sphere into the private or the secretive.
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u/atomic-knowledge 2d ago
How long is Gilead actually around for anyhow? We know from the books it eventually collapsed (not sure about the show) and I always got the sense that it didn’t last very long, maybe a bit more than. decade. Am I misremembering the books or did anyone else get that sense
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u/Ashura_98 2d ago
In the book they specified that it lasted 200 years, in the epilogue. In the series, from season 1 to season 4, 7 years pass. I am unsure how much time there is between season 4 and 5, tho.
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u/FuckingArtistsMaaaan 2d ago
I haven’t read the book in ages, but to think of Gilead lasting 200 years is absolute agony.
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u/Odysses2020 1d ago
I mean…slavery was alive and well for hundreds of years.
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u/FuckingArtistsMaaaan 1d ago
Yes, and look at the damage it has done to multiple generations of people whose ancestors were enslaved and who are still affected by systemic racism that hasn’t been eradicated because white people (generally speaking) think we’re living in a post-racist world. We’re not, and it’s still horrific and heartbreaking.
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u/satans_wafflemaker 2d ago
I thought it was something like 20 years in the books? They’re only a few years in when Nichole is born and she’s a teenager when Gilead is beginning to collapse.
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u/Ashura_98 21h ago
I haven't read the second book, so there might be a retcon in that regard, I don't know. But on the first book, when they are discussing about Gilead in that epilogue that happens many years in the future, they mention that Gilead lasted for 200 years.
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u/yeswowmaybe 3d ago
tbh, i think they just straight up killed all of the gay men 😕 out, rumored or otherwise. as for commanders looking for gay experiences, i'm sure they figure out a way to abuse the staff -- bar tenders, delivery dudes, guards, other commanders, etc.
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u/Ambystomatigrinum 3d ago
It seems obvious that they would just coercively force staff into sex. Their society has basically erased the idea of consent. All the commanders who got high up did so because they like power, so the gay/bi men who become commanders would probably enjoy that dynamic.
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u/princess20202020 3d ago
All of this
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u/MA_2_Rob 3d ago
Also, from the military before DADT: commanders don’t want other commanders to see their gay shit- no one is going to take the word of some Econo person over a commander but outside of a threesome or some closeted thing they are basically playing “got ya!” with each other, especially as you get to the top.
Like I’m %1000 percent Winslow was some predator creep who’d get off imposing himself on anyone and then using the encounter as blackmail until he could dispose of the scared until June treated him to a complimentary acupuncture and scalp session at the hotel.
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u/atomicjen 2d ago
I came to say the same thing. I work in a hyper-conservative, hyper-toxic masculinity environment and, from my experience a real life Gilead would be exactly this. In the beginning any non-straight person would be killed, high up or not. Their dead body would be put on display like a witch trial with a Evangelical spin. Over time closeted relationships would appear but, it would most likely be abuse if some kind 95% of the time. If anyone were found out they would too be killed and hung from the wall. People with power get deranged with power.
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u/madamevanessa98 3d ago
It’s much more accepted to be a man who rapes women than it is to be a man who has consensual gay sex, in a lot of extremist societies. Look at most of the Middle East for example.
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u/madamevanessa98 3d ago
Okay but again, that doesn’t extend to a governmental level as far as I know. Being gay is a literal crime in most Muslim countries, punishable by death.
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u/JuneClever444 3d ago
The "law" is a facade. They portray that to the rest of the world, and you fell for it. It is very different from what actually goes on. Someone that sick and deprived is not following the "rules". Rules are meant to control the lower class, they have little to do with anyone in power. They do what they want.
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u/Oleanderlullaby 2d ago
Aht aht that’s an extremist sect pulling from a cultural element let’s be accurate here
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u/JuneClever444 1d ago edited 1d ago
It is very common, I am being accurate. You've likely never been to the Middle East and certainly not been privy to what goes on behind closed doors. I know this for an absolute fact from military intelligence. Here is the Wiki link about the practice:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi
In addition to that, child sex slavery is active all over the world. The largest sex trafficking day of the year in the US is the Superbowl.
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u/GenericRedditor7 3d ago
I doubt there’s gay prostitutes, gay commanders would probably rape and abuse lower ranking men and force them to keep quiet about it
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u/princess20202020 3d ago
I really don’t think so. In most fundamentalist societies, gay activities are completely forbidden and punished. Men with those proclivities are often full of shame, believing they are abnormal or sinful or tempted. Women seem to face less disgust than men. But overall I think any gay acts would be swiftly condemned and punished.
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u/Taiwan_ 3d ago
And in Gilead, on the surface, this is true. But, we all know commanders and how inconsistent they are with their morals. Just like Joe Biden said about Donald Trump having the morals of an alley cat while espousing Christian morals, yeah, kinda like that.
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u/princess20202020 3d ago
Yeah but I feel like homosexuality is where they draw the line. You see it today, conservative evangelicals will look the other way with adultery, porn stars, probably even underage girls. But homosexuality and transgender people seem to push their buttons. It’s not a “temptation” like a porn star is to a married man, it’s a perversion, a mental illness to them.
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u/CorrosionInk 3d ago
Trans porn is also amongst the most searched terms is several conservative areas, it's just confined to being a fetish (similar to 'incest' porn). So it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume at least some of the Gilead commanders secretly fetish homosexuality/transgender people.
There's probably also a divide between the opportunists that assisted the formation of Gilead and those that grew up in the system, who would be more likely to be true believers. Again mirroring real world events, example being the indoctrination of the Hitler Youth in Nazi Germany compared to the opportunistic higher ups like Wernher Von Braun.
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u/princess20202020 3d ago
Porn viewing doesn’t correlate with engaging in similar acts. I can understand why people would be curious to watch transgender porn but that doesn’t mean they are attracted to transgender persons. Like you said, it’s similar to incest porn. Many people get off on watching something taboo but it doesn’t mean they actually want to have incest. In addition people watch gay porn who aren’t gay or even closeted.
I do think even in todays progressive (compared to Gilead) society there is a belief by a good chunk of people that homosexuality is a perversion but homosexuals should be tolerated (hate the sin, love the sinner). That latter part goes out the window in Gilead. I agree with other posters that commanders with these desires would be most likely to rape/abuse their male staff or have private encounters. Jezebels would not offer gay experiences and anyone caught in a homosexual encounter would be punished with death. It would be much more severe than being caught with a woman, underage girl, adultery, etc.
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u/doesshechokeforcoke 3d ago
I think Winslow did that to Fred to make him uncomfortable and to exert his power over him.
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u/JaelAmara44 3d ago
I don't know in which chapter, but the boy who was going to escape with June was raped by a commander, they say it in a not very explicit way, if I'm not wrong it was "More than Gilead, run away from him, his commander has... inclinations peculiar" something like that, I don't remember well. So commanders use men of lower rank than them.
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u/TalaLeisu2 Econowife 2d ago
Which boy are you talking about?? Bc I don't remember that at all
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u/JaelAmara44 2d ago
The boy who almost escaped with Offred, but who was shot, when they are talking about the "kidnapping" of the Waterford baby, that is mentioned in passing, I'm not sure if it was Aunt Lydia, Serena or the commander, but I know it wasn't June.
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u/TalaLeisu2 Econowife 2d ago
You mean the driver from the plane?? I don't think they ever mentioned him again.
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u/ambermeadowcompanion 2d ago
Where was this mentioned? The guy who got on the plane and got killed when she got caught? Cause I didn’t see or hear anything abt a commander raping a guy .
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u/JaelAmara44 2d ago
Yeah, it's that guy, I can't remember who mentioned it, but they were talking about Offred's "kidnapping" when they said it.
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u/ambermeadowcompanion 2d ago
In the book or series? That’s where I got lost I have seen the series probably 15 times. - but if it’s in the book maybe that’s why i missed it but she didn’t get away in the book till t he last page - so I’m lost . Maybe I kissed it
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u/JaelAmara44 2d ago
In the series, I remember watching it when it was being broadcast on Paramunt and my mother mentioned "Wait...he was raped?" I don't know if it's because of the translation or something, but I watch the series in Spanish, I saw it on television and I vividly remember that because, well, it was the first time I realized that not even men were free in Gilead.
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u/JuneClever444 3d ago
This entire show, and much of the 1% in our current society are hungry for power. Sex is just one of the many ways men chase the dragon. It is far more common than people realize that men are sleeping with other men, even if they are married or in relationships with women. It has to do with the power dynamic, the lack of emotional connection, and ease. Men aren't requiring that their DL partners get them flowers, wash the dishes, or help with the kids. It's easy cum, easy go. The more people are hooked to screens, the less human connection there is and the more they just stick it in any hole.
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u/AddressPowerful516 2d ago
I wouldn't be surprised if some commanders had some secret encounters before a "gender traitor" was put on the wall. It is unlikely they would be at Jezebels but another location may be a possibility. When they do the reaping ceremony they can come up with any crime that makes the handmaid's rage, especially when that is one of the only times they can feel like they have any power. So a transaction with a guard and a threat of blackmail, an easy way to get rid of that threat and brutally. Nobody would question the validity if it was coming from a higher commander.
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u/EdenHazardsFarts 2d ago
There's no way there weren't clubs even kinkier than where June was brought
(Not saying being gay is kinky but that would've been very scandalous in Gilead. That club clearly only allowed opposite sex interactions. At least in the open)
They should've explored Winslow and Fred more because it was clearly a plot that went nowhere (mid season??). Homosexuality would be a much larger problem realistically than the show has shown for both women and men
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u/Cheepyface 2d ago
I mean to be fair, Christopher Meloni has been giving that vibe since he was in Oz as a Bi felon..there’s just something so fluid about him and it’s kinda hot lol.
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u/Evil_Queen10 2d ago
How would we know if they haven't talked or showed anything about that on the show? Lol! Just that they killed them, so.....
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u/Useful_Orchid_6862 2d ago
Fully possible, it would make sense but I don’t think it’s something they’d be open about even at Jezebels.
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u/Shigeko_Kageyama 2d ago
There's no way a commander would risk going up on the wall like that. It only takes one person saying one thing.
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u/New-Number-7810 1d ago
I there is a video by the YouTuber Jessie Gender in which she suggested that some trans women would end up in Jezebel Clubs. Personally I think gay men could end up there too, for the same reason.
Having said that, I could also see why they wouldn’t be there. Commanders who are okay with breaking society’s rules might see gay sex as a step too far.
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u/chucksboxers 12h ago
I interpreted that as Winslow is into power dynamic rape and subjugation. He wants to rape the spirited (June) or the powerful (Fred). I can't align power rape with normal, healthy, consensual hetero/bi/homosexual desires at all.
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u/OkMathematician3439 3d ago
Just so you know, saying some men are “into trans women” is degrading. Trans women are women, they’re not a fetish. Straight men will find some trans women attractive and some unattractive just like any other group of women.
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u/Taiwan_ 3d ago
Agreed, I wasn't meant to be degrading or try to disparage trans women in any way. I am one of those men who find trans women attractive just like any other woman. My girlfriend going on 6 years now is a trans woman. However, some men do treat trans women like a fetish. The primary cohort of these individuals are usually otherwise transphobic men. That is what I mean.
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u/OkMathematician3439 3d ago
Yeah, you have a point, I just wanted to explain for people who aren’t educated on the subject that it’s transphobic to fetishize trans women (sorry, I should’ve worded my initial comment better). I’ve also experienced transphobia on the sub before so I’m always cautious when trans people come up in discussions because the responses can be TERFy.
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u/Taiwan_ 3d ago
Yeah, I definitely agree with you there.
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u/OkMathematician3439 3d ago
Case and point, the fact that I’m getting downvoted for speaking out against the transphobia on the sub.
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u/witch51 2d ago
I'm over half Native American and men fetishize us, too. They also fetishize every other flavor of female. It wasn't meant as an insult, I'm sure. Not everything is an insult...sometimes that's just how things are.
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u/OkMathematician3439 2d ago
Yeah, and obviously that’s not ok either and is racist. People often don’t recognize the transphobia in fetishizing trans women though. It’s different (and I’m not necessarily saying worse) than fetishizing other women because it’s treating them as a third gender and a sex object at the same time, it’s called trans misogyny.
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u/witch51 2d ago
Its just men being pervs. I avoid people like that and don't waste my time with them. I did nothing more for this than simply exist. I didn't pick my tit size or my race or my walk or my speech yet am fetishized for all of them. Meh...it is what it is. That's life and I'm not wasting a lovely weekend railing against what will never change :)
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u/OkMathematician3439 2d ago
From this comment, I really don’t think you understand how unsafe trans women feel from men who fetishize them on a daily basis.
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u/witch51 2d ago
You're right, I don't because I can't. I feel empathy absolutely. But I can no more understand that than you can understand the repeated abuses over 59 years that have made me so blase about it. Is your worse than mine? Fuck no and I'd die at that hill.
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u/OkMathematician3439 2d ago
Please get therapy (and I say that with no condescension but with genuine concern) I specifically recommend EMDR as it helps with trauma. That being said, how dare you say that what you’ve been through is worse than what I’ve gone through. You don’t know what I’ve been through and even if you did, trying to quantify trauma is impossible because it affects everyone differently. I’m genuinely sorry about what you’ve been through but it doesn’t give you the right to be rude to other people.
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u/witch51 2d ago
I didn't say it was worse, babes. I said it was different. What I did actually say was that yours wasn't worse than mine. I didn't invalidate your feelings...I simply didn't allow you to invalidate mine. As far as therapy...back atcha. That shits more expensive than I can afford, but, am glad that you can. I'm not rude. I'm just very open and very honest and folks aren't ever sure what to do with that :)
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u/OkMathematician3439 2d ago
Where did I try to invalidate yours though?
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u/witch51 2d ago
If you can't see it then its not worth my time to try to show you. I am not Captain Teachingmoment. Take this as your internet Reddit win.
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u/ZongduOfArrakis 3d ago
I think it's more likely that extremely high-up Commanders would have to make their own private arrangements via their trusted agents. Jezebels seems to be a fairly large-scale unofficial part of the system as the country club in S4 was also a 'Jezebels' set up in the same way as the Boston clubby place. Commanders probably have their limits and also wouldn't want certain hardliners to easily get a more damaging type of dirt on them.