r/Invincible • u/mwthecool Omni-Mod • Nov 17 '23

Invincible [Episode Discussion] - S02E03 - This Missive, This Machination! EPISODE DISCUSSION

Episode 3 - This Missive, This Machination!

Mark starts his college career, Debbie struggles with personal trauma, and Allen the Alien returns home to find a new threat facing the Coalition of Planets.

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1.3k

u/Klutzy-Rooster-6805 Nov 17 '23

went from funny sex narration 4th wall breaking to allen getting severely fucked up in front of his girl. while watching how she was reacting. damn.

185

u/Scaevus Nov 17 '23

while watching how she was reacting

I have a suspicion that she is, in fact, the mole.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

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u/NinduTheWise Nov 17 '23

Bay verse Optimus was a serial killer and a psychopath

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u/Chemical_Swimming_90 Nov 17 '23

There's a good video explaining why was he more and more brutal each movie. He was basically pissed pulling his punches and not finishing off Deceptions got him killed.

3

u/Financial_Rent_7978 Killcannon Nov 17 '23

I know, I agree, reread my comment

1

u/300andWhat Nov 17 '23

Wait, what? why?

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u/canisignupnow Rex Splode Nov 17 '23 edited Feb 14 '24

attractive test trees north sulky threatening direction coordinated deserted wine

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

0

u/Internal-Contact1656 Nov 18 '23

And bayverse decepticons had it coming, five separate genocide attempts against earth and the only one actually getting shit done in those movies was Optimus. Idk why we act like primes the standout when every character in the bayverse was brutal

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

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u/Karkava Monster Girl Nov 17 '23

The bayverse has a very horrendous idea of heroism. Hey, Bay! You're not a hero just because you hang up a national flag and carry a gun!

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u/Financial_Rent_7978 Killcannon Nov 17 '23

Bayverse Optimus is a serial killer, like I said, but… what? I don’t think Bayverse Optimus ever does anything with a national flag, and the villains all carry guns too…

1

u/IntelligentBerry7363 Nov 17 '23

Dude was Venger in the D&D Cartoon, he knows how to be evil.

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u/DiseaseRidden Nov 17 '23

I don't fully buy that he's the mole. Beyond the fact that it'd be too obvious, why would he even mention there being a mole? Especially if he knew the viltrumites would come anyway? Seems like an unnecessary way to draw suspicion. Shutting off the life support could also be as much to make sure the viltrumites couldn't get information on Mark out of him, and he did apologize as he did it.

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u/jamaes1 Nov 17 '23

I kind of agree with you, but still, how much more info can they get from Allen that they couldn't get from anyone else from the council who was present when Allen told them about Mark? They all know Mark is from Earth, is Optimus Prime guy going to silence the whole council?

3

u/PickleGaGa Nov 17 '23

Maybe he's faking his death for idk why.

2

u/sudopm Nov 20 '23 edited Nov 20 '23

Given how powerful they are in the first place I don't really get why they couldn't just wipe out their whole operation right then and there.

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u/Heyyoguy123 Nov 20 '23

I got a feeling that the Coalition has some pretty powerful weaponry or tech that could kill Viltrumites, while the Viltrumites could just blitz through the Coalition soldiers. They’re essentially at a stalemate, which is why either side hasn’t been annihilated yet. Either side could attack, but it would result in both sides taking heavy losses, so they just sorta dance around each other

3

u/23Conflagration32 Nov 18 '23

Maybe optimus has a deal with the viltrumites

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u/ILoveRegenHealth Nov 17 '23

That girlfriend was eating from a creature with a brain exposed. She's the devil.

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u/Generic_user_person Nov 17 '23

Too obvious.

Doesnt make sense to tell Allen there is a mole, only for the Viltrumites to attack nxt day.

Lets be real, only half a dozen ppl were at the council meeting, and only 1 person that wasnt Optimus Prime spoke up. If i were a betting man (and i am, its a terrible problem) i'd wager its on the dude who spent the entire meeting complaining about Allens Intel.

8

u/huskyoncaffeine Nov 17 '23

Well... I think that's a red herring.

Try to think like a pragmatic.

Allen is the only person with more information on the matter. If there is a spy on the council, the Viltrumites have the basic information, but not many details. Now that they are aware of it, Allen has become a liability. Not only could the Viltrumites try to extract that information from Allen, they already proved they are capable to do so and could try again.

Taking Allen out of the picture is one way to ensure momentary operational security.

If the Viltrumites get Allen to give up the intel, the coalition's chances ger slimmer. But with Allen gone, there is a chamce for the Coalition to learn more about Earth, ahead of the Viltrumites.

The mere potential of Invincible is a greater asset than Allen, and the latter is a potential liability in the protection of said asset.

1

u/pseudo_nemesis Nov 19 '23

I agree with you, and the fact that he apologized to Allen pretty much seals it for me, that he's trying to kill Allen to protect their information/themselves.

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u/inconspicuous_male Nov 17 '23

But the leak had already made it to the Viltrumites when Allen told her. I thought she was too at first. My guess right now is Thaddeus just because of what he did with Allen. I have no idea why but I'm reminded of Episode 1 where I thought Omni Man was brainwashed or working for the greater good or something, but it turns out he was just evil

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u/finnjakefionnacake Nov 17 '23

don't we already know who the mole is

64

u/Shifty-Sie Nov 17 '23

Yeah I thought it was really clear that Councilman Prime was the mole. We saw him turn off life support.

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u/ken_tempo Nov 17 '23

I don't get why so many people are saying this. Why, as the mole, would he inform someone who had no reason to suspect him in the first place? Especially if being the mole meant that he would know a Viltrumite squad was already on its way to handle that same person?

Turning off Allen's life support only shows us that Thaedus is willing to kill him (or simply risk his safety as that would be an extremely lame death) for some greater purpose. It comes off as a red herring for people who don't think about it too much.

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u/dignifiedstrut Nov 17 '23

Why, as the mole, would he inform someone who had no reason to suspect him in the first place?

Only reason I can think of was to preemptively divert suspicion from himself since now that Mark's existence has been established, it was immediately getting leaked to the Viltrumites and thus it was very soon going to be apparent a mole was in the room once the Viltrumite's showed up demanding answers.

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u/AbilityMore3013 Nov 18 '23

Everyone is saying that he turned off the life support. I don't believe that's what he did. I think he just turned down allens metabolism. he's not dead.

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u/DrippyWaffler ENTER CUSTOM TEXT HERE Nov 18 '23

The thing started beeping ominously and he said "forgive me".

he ded

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u/[deleted] Apr 02 '24

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u/DrippyWaffler ENTER CUSTOM TEXT HERE Apr 02 '24

Lmfao did you really come back to a 4 month old conversation to say "I told you so"? XD I respect it tbh

I've read the books now, it may have even been this thread that spurred me to do it, so I did know lol

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u/AbilityMore3013 Apr 02 '24

hell yeah. new episode tomorrow too

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u/[deleted] Apr 03 '24

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u/AbilityMore3013 Nov 18 '23

if you look it up, kirkman revealed that allen is in fact not dead because he's in an iron lung. i can see how it looks that way though. I truly wish to see him again.

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u/DrippyWaffler ENTER CUSTOM TEXT HERE Nov 18 '23

The iron lung got turned off tho, hence "forgive me"

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '23

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u/Wolf6120 Cecil Stedman Nov 20 '23

Especially if being the mole meant that he would know a Viltrumite squad was already on its way to handle that same person?

For that matter, if Theodas is the mole then why was the Viltrumite squad necessary at all? All they wanted was to hear everything Allen knew about Mark and about Nolan's whereabouts - all of which was information that Allen very willingly and readily offered up to the council, and especially to Theodas. Would it not have been easier for Optimus Prime to just ask Allen directly and then pass that information to the Viltrumites instead of tipping them off that they should swing by and beat it out of Allen?

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u/tbinrbrich Nov 20 '23

My headcannon here is that Theodas tipped off the Viltrumites, thinking they would let him learn more- but they acted as they do, came and asked one question and started punching.

​

His turning off the machine was a mercy kill to an old friend that he hoped this wouldnt happen to

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u/shewy92 Nov 18 '23

It comes off as a red herring for people who don't think about it too much.

So what about the guys on the council who were against Allen? Wouldnt they be better red herrings as a double twist?

And what reason would Optimus have to kill Allen if he was the good guy? You kinda glossed over that part.

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u/HimalayanPunkSaltavl Nov 18 '23

Good guys dont exist in this show

6

u/SalvadorZombie Nov 18 '23

If you've read the comic you know that's objectively false. But if I wanted to get into a deep discussion about the narrative of the story and choices Kirkman made in writing this it would spoil a lot of stuff.

Basically, think of The Walking Dead (Kirkman's other series) and Invincible as polar opposites. TWD was very much trying to find hope in pure despair, while Invincible is about these peak moments of despair in an otherwise hopeful story.

1

u/HimalayanPunkSaltavl Nov 18 '23

I have read the comic! (actually twice now)

It for sure isn't a game of thrones thing or whatever. I just mean that the characters are human and make mistakes or operate towards their best interests in ways that would be very hard to describe as 'good'

That's what makes it so delightful and grounded despite all the crazy super powers

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u/jessebona Nov 18 '23

Come on, even The Boys has good guys and that's an objectively far more cynical show.

1

u/HimalayanPunkSaltavl Nov 18 '23

Yeah I am being a little silly. I commented down below with a more reasonable perspective.

I meant more that the characters are complex. There's no sort of dnd style "good" folks. Everything is messy and weird

2

u/Protocx Nov 18 '23

Seems like the perfect alibi especially if he has a way to prove he told Allen there was a mole. No one would suspect him. He might have just been betting on Allen telling someone about his mission too. It wasn't a guarantee but it wouldn't hurt not to try.

He can basically just say "How can I be the mole if I was the one told Allen about a potential mole?"

2

u/Shifty-Sie Nov 18 '23

Yeah, after thinking about it a bit more, I'm not as sure. But its easy for me to think that the Mole's position probably grants them and/or their people temporary safety from Viltrum, or something like that. Why else would they be a mole?

Allen coming in bragging about this new kid who's existence could seriously undermine Viltrum creates a new threat to the empire that shakes things up, in a way that could jeopardize the mole's position with them. So they might be inclined to leak that info knowing the Viltrumites tend to just destroy threats and not be big on asking questions. When that didn't work, the mole might be inclined to make sure the job is finished.

Like, the didn't give a lot more information to go off of that could lend any one theory that much weight, so that's the only thing that currently makes sense to me. If it's wrong, it's wrong, no harm done.

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u/CelioHogane Nov 18 '23

No that makes no fucking sense, why would the mole tell Allen there is a mole.

Also [Spoilers] Allen's wiki doesn't end here so im gonna asume he doesn't die.

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u/ganzgpp1 Nov 17 '23

...did you miss the part where Thaedus cut off Allen's life support.

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u/Radix2309 Nov 17 '23

No, but I did miss the part where Allen actually died.

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u/SDRPGLVR Nov 18 '23

Yes, if there's anything I've learned watching this show it's that you can't just make inferences based on what you see, especially when it comes to a character's death. There are some dead characters that I'll probably be expecting to see pop back up right up to the finale.

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u/SalvadorZombie Nov 18 '23

Man, I'm just saying this.

Don't make definitive statements after watching an episode of this series. This series is very, VERY good at making people who make absolute statements about things that might have happened look really stupid. Kirkman went out of his way in this series to subvert the absolute shit out of expectations, and this was 20 or so years ago. The man made his fortune on The Walking Dead and Invincible - TWD the comic was 10x better than the series ever was, and Invincible is by far the better series of the two. World building, character development, you name it. I think TWD suffered from being so grounded that it limited Kirkman's options at times, where Invincible is such a wild and outlandish universe that he could do whatever he wanted, and it showed.

Just take this as a basic rule - unless you see something happen definitively, for sure, ON SCREEN, with multiple confirmation after, DO NOT assume that it happened the way you think. And there may even be subversions of that at certain points, just when you think you have his style figured out. The man was writing this comic at a point when people still wrote into comics and sent emails, before social media was the universal thing it is now, he had time to take people's comments, think on them, and figure out a way to make them feel dumb. And he did that.

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u/Broad_Speaker2551 Nov 17 '23

That doesn’t support the fact that he’s the mole at all…

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u/shewy92 Nov 18 '23

How does it not? Why would he kill him if he's the good guy?

0

u/Broad_Speaker2551 Nov 18 '23

I don’t think a single “good guy” or “bad guy” exists in this show. Every character is just doing what they think is for the best according to their individual morals. It’s entirely possible (and most likely IMO) that Thaedus’ reason for turning off the life support is some kind of sacrifice for the greater good, and we simply don’t have enough information to understand it yet. More importantly, why would he let Allen in on his suspicions of there being a mole if it was actually him? Surely he would have known that the Viltrumites were already on their way to deal with Allen, so that would be pointless.

1

u/KillingTime_ForNow Nov 18 '23

Doesn't Allen have some weird regen powers where every time he dies he comes back stronger than before? Maybe Optimus Prime knows that & is trying to make him stronger by "killing" him rather than having their technology save him & him not level up his strength.

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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23

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u/ganzgpp1 Nov 20 '23

No- in the scene where Thaedus visits Telia as she's watching over the hospitalized Allen after the fight with the Viltrumites, he tells her to go to home and rest so she does. Then he walks over, cuts off the life support, and says "Forgive me, Allen."

It's... not subtle at all. My best guess is you were distracted or walked away from your TV for a moment or something LOL

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u/raknor88 Show Fan Nov 17 '23

Considering the hospital scene, I'm not so sure. Or is she a shapeshifter?

5

u/shewy92 Nov 18 '23

How is she the mole? Did you not see Optimus turn off Allen's life support?

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u/natholemewIII Nov 17 '23

I feel like the mole's probably the dude who turned off his life support.

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u/pseudo_nemesis Nov 19 '23

and I feel like that's an obvious red herring.

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u/cancerinos Nov 18 '23

Hummm... did you see the person killing Alan off? It wasn't her.

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u/SalvadorZombie Nov 18 '23

Did you see Allen die? Because I didn't.

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u/travellerofthe-winds Nov 18 '23

Isn't the old guy with the beard confirmed to be a mole because he pulled the plug on Allen's machine?

2

u/lightningIncarnate Nov 19 '23

uh, did you not see thaedus turning off allen’s life support?

2

u/Chub-bop The Immortal Nov 22 '23

Now that you mention it, he was in a decent spot for a viltrumite Ambush, she might have had them sit there on purpose, and they viltrmutes probably lied to her, talking about how they just wanted information

1

u/OneGoodRib Nov 17 '23

As soon as he said there's a mole I'm like "oh it's the girlfriend" based on nothing.

If Peter Cullen was the mole why would he alert Allen to the possibility of there being a mole??

1

u/zombiegirl_stephanie Nov 20 '23

He was probably aware the viltrumites would interrogate Allen, by bringing up the mole, he's making himself less of a suspect, this trope has been done before in other media

-1

u/Spicymeatballer123 Nov 17 '23

I have a suspicion that you're slow on the uptake rofl.

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u/Broad_Speaker2551 Nov 17 '23

I hope you don’t delete this comment when you end up looking like an idiot

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u/Spicymeatballer123 Nov 17 '23

Let me be clear: I don't know who the mole is, only that its obviously not her, because the viltrumites that attacked Alan had access to information he just shared in the meeting the previous day that she wasn't at. Plus, if she was the mole, she wouldn't be so surprised & horrified by his attack. Hence, slow on the uptake for thinking its her.