r/Invincible • u/mwthecool Omni-Mod • Nov 17 '23

Invincible [Episode Discussion] - S02E03 - This Missive, This Machination! EPISODE DISCUSSION

Episode 3 - This Missive, This Machination!

Mark starts his college career, Debbie struggles with personal trauma, and Allen the Alien returns home to find a new threat facing the Coalition of Planets.

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1.9k

u/8dev8 Cecil Stedman Nov 17 '23

On the one hand I get Cecil’s issue

On the otherhand.

Mark ignoring orders to save lives really should reassure you.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

Honestly, Cecil really bothered me in this episode. I know he's been manipulating Mark all season (and even before), but telling Mark that he's like his father for choosing to go save billions of lives is especially scummy.

Cecil is really smart, but constantly gaslighting a teenager is not a good idea to turn them into a well-adjusted adult. I think at some point Mark is going to realize that Cecil only cares about control.

That's why Cecil's such a great character. He's somewhere between good and evil.

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u/LMkingly Nov 17 '23

To be honest i don't think Cecile was wrong to distrust and not want mark to leave the galaxy on a drop of a hat because a random alien that came out of nowhere who somehow heard about him and specifically came to seek him out asked for help. And we see it ended up being bullshit anyway. Cecile is wrong to keep rubbing omni-man in mark's face anytime they have a disagreement but he wasn't wrong about this.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23 edited Nov 17 '23

I get where you're coming from, but I disagree. Mark is a hero, and part of that means taking risks to save lives. Mark had no way of knowing whether the bug alien was telling the truth, but he can't risk it if the alien isn't. How could you live with yourself if you knew that billions of lives were lost because you didn't trust someone?

(And Mark isn't really at risk - if Viltrum knows about him, then they can come to Earth and kill him literally whenever they want. He can't even beat Omni-Man, much less a squad of Viltrumites. There's literally no reason to believe that he's being lured to a trap that he can't handle.)

That's kind of the entire theme of Mark's arc in this season, too. At the start of the season, he blames himself for all the people that "he" killed, like in the subway scene. Everyone tells him it's not his fault, but he needs time to internalize that. In episode 2, he makes the heroic choice to save the fish people - not out of guilt (like he was doing in episode 1) but out of genuine heroism.

His decision in episode 3 is an evolution of that. He's not only learning to be a hero, but he's willing to make his own decisions and trust his instincts. It was a really powerful character moment.

Contrast that to Cecil. Sure, from his perspective, keeping Mark around on Earth is safe. Cecil would probably have no problem with billions of alien critters dying as long as it provides some marginal benefit to Earth. Cecil is not a good person; he's a pragmatic person. But Mark is good. Mark is a hero, and Cecil isn't.

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u/LMkingly Nov 17 '23

Mark had no way of knowing whether the bug alien was telling the truth, but he can't risk it if the alien isn't.

Yeah but he already showed himself to be not truthful the first time around. I get he's a hero who wants to do hero things no matter what because he's a good person who wants to help but would it have killed him to take the alien with him to cecile for a more thorough briefing and explanation on exactly who he is and how he knew mark and who and where his people are and what exactly the problem is and how mark can help? I bet there would have been more holes in his story if he was pressed on it further.

1

u/AttitudeAndEffort3 Nov 21 '23

He’s a teenager. They are literally known for their inability to think of logical consequences - its their defining trait lmao.

Plus he was peer pressured into it. Another known failing of teens

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u/turkish_gold Nov 17 '23

Mark had no way of knowing whether the bug alien was telling the truth, but he can't risk it if the alien isn't.

Sure he can.

If he can't then literally any one of his enemies could lure him into a trap merely by claiming with zero proof "someone is in danger, follow me".

The fact that his father literally used his hero complex against him underscores how dangerous it is to have one.

Mark would be better of trusting a team (it doesn't have to be Cecil) so they can do research for him, and he doesn't have to make moral decisions in the heat of the moment.

Mark literally got on board the space craft without knowing how long it would take to get to the destination. He had no strategy at all. For a six day trip, he could've taken an hour to like: pack his bags, talk to his girlfriend in person not just wave goodbye at a window, talk to Cecil and get professional help, talk to his mother and tell her that he's going to fight on an alien world. Anything, except leap to the defense of an alien he just met that same night.

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u/Waywoah Nov 18 '23

If he can't then literally any one of his enemies could lure him into a trap merely by claiming with zero proof "someone is in danger, follow me".

That was also how Titan tricked him

2

u/AttitudeAndEffort3 Nov 21 '23

This is 100% on Cecil not understanding how to deal with a teenager.

Dude was brash, impulsive, made a decision without thinking of any of the consequences and peer pressured into it after originally making the right choice.

Teaching him to counteract these normal teenage human thought processes would be the best way to “control” him and get him to see the downfalls in his decision making processes.

Bro needs a father figure and is trying to raise himself lmao.

15

u/Hungover52 Nov 17 '23

Well, a civilisation that can travel 2 galaxies in 6 days, they can deal with a meteor problem. That shit was stupid from the get go.

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u/Reggiardito Nov 17 '23

I mean we're talking about a cross-galaxy meteor shower. Maybe those meteors are some otherwordly type shit

8

u/pawstar21 Nov 17 '23

I disagree, mark was just getting his ass handed to him by the gang of blue clones. Danger should be at the forefront of his mind. Also he’s leaving earth relatively undefended.

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u/OkChicken7697 Nov 17 '23

How could you live with yourself if you knew that billions of lives were lost because you didn't trust someone?

There universe is nearly infinite. Is mark going to travel to a Galaxy 50 trillion light years away because there's the possibility of a volcano erupting?

3

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

No, of course not, and nothing I said implied that I think that. I'm not sure why you're being argumentative, but I'm not really interested in that.

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u/SilasX Nov 20 '23

That ... was a natural implication of the quoted argument, plus your point:

Mark had no way of knowing whether the bug alien was telling the truth, but he can't risk it if the alien isn't.

If you think that implication is stupid, you're getting to see why your original argument is, too. It's in the same class as Pascal's Wager arguments. "Oh, there's just a tiny chance of saving lots of lives, so I have to drop everything." No, not what a sane decision theory looks like.

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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23

It's not a "natural implication." I never said that there's no level of risk/reward that wouldn't make it worth it. You're putting words in my mouth.

However, Mark made a decision that the bug alien was likely not a major threat, so he deemed that the potential reward (saving billions of alien lives) outweighed the risk (of some trap).

I think Mark made the right choice based on the information he had. You're free to disagree; it's a matter of opinion. But please don't put words in my mouth. I suggest that you try to interpret comments charitably rather than the "well actually" approach because your interpretation of my comment is frankly insulting. Just start off by assuming everyone's as smart as you and has basic reasoning skills and you'll communicate much more effectively with people online.

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u/SilasX Nov 20 '23

It's not a "natural implication." I never said that there's no level of risk/reward that wouldn't make it worth it.

Correct, you just left it unspecified, indicating you hadn’t realized it’s an issue in the first place, which is worse!

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u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23

You're contradicting yourself. Either I implied something or I left it unspecified. Those are mutually exclusive. I'm not sure what you think your accomplishing, but I'm not interested in a pointless argument.

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u/FruitJuicante Nov 19 '23

Cecil cares about control though. Cecil sees himself saving the world using Mark as a tool. Falls apart if the tool has free will.

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u/thebsoftelevision Nov 20 '23

Cecil was actually right though. It makes no strategic sense to believe aliens without proof and it ended up luring Mark to Omni Man anyways.

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u/ILoveRegenHealth Nov 17 '23

Agreed. Cecil just didn't like how quickly Mark said "Yes!" without that bug alien being vetted yet. It doesn't matter if Mark's heart is in the right place, he has to think of consequences and backup plans too.

7

u/hatesranged Nov 17 '23

Yeah I mean as I was watching I was pretty sure it was all a ploy for the Viltrumites to kidnap him and steal his cock and balls

And I mean, I was kinda right

Point is it was very sus and likely a trap

7

u/Reggiardito Nov 17 '23

This. Omniman seems to be peaceful I guess? (haven't read the comics) but what if it was just a ploy by him or anyone of similar power to bring him out of the planet and murder the fuck out of him. Cecil probably didn't know shit about the bug people

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u/derekbaseball Nov 17 '23

Yeah, it's an echo of the Season 1 episode where Titan recruits him to take down Machine Head, which leaves him and multiple Guardians of the Globe hospitalized. In that case, it was Nolan who didn't want him to help, with Mark defying his instructions. Which is probably why Nolan knows that Mark will go for it when he sends Luolzon to Earth.

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u/Wolf6120 Cecil Stedman Nov 20 '23

I feel like Mark and Cecil are, ironically, both grappling with their guilt over what happened with Omni-Man by over-compensating.

Mark feels guilty about all the people that died as collateral damage in the fight, so he's desperately throwing himself at every opportunity to save lives, to the point of getting a little too eager/reckless and falling into a trap. Cecil on the other hand feels guilty that he didn't catch on to Nolan's lies sooner, and so now he's being overly paranoid and cautious about everything and everyone, and unfairly trying to strong-arm Mark into being just a weapon that Cecil can point and shoot without question, because he doesn't want to make the mistake of trusting the wrong person again.

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u/[deleted] Nov 18 '23

The problem being he never even suggests to Mark it could be a trap

1

u/Joeybfast Nov 18 '23

He should have lead with that.

1

u/nerdguy1138 Nov 20 '23

No spoilers please, but it makes zero sense for that to actually be his dad.

Remember we know for a fact that this entire race are telepathic illusionists.

1

u/OkayRuin Nov 20 '23

Mind elaborating on why it makes zero sense? Nolan had to go somewhere. Why not a nearby planet no one has heard of where he’d be treated like a god?

1

u/nerdguy1138 Nov 20 '23

Then why specifically mention that race can cloak with mental illusions?

It's just a pointless red herring.

2

u/OkayRuin Nov 26 '23

I hate to say I told you so, so I'll shout it through cupped hands.

1

u/nerdguy1138 Nov 26 '23

It's a good episode, but that was seriously a pointless red herring.

1

u/OkayRuin Nov 21 '23 edited Nov 21 '23

Yeah, that’s a fair point. I suppose we’ll find out in a few days.

If it wasn’t for Nolan, how do you think they would have heard of Invincible? His only exoplanetary adventures so far have been to the Moon and to Mars, correct? Unless I’m forgetting something, the only people off-planet who could’ve spread word about his deeds are Nolan, Allen or Battle Beast.

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u/Sahm_1982 Nov 21 '23

So, you think Cecil should have told Mark "fuck those billions of loves, let em die?"

As I don't really see any other option

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

To be fair, I'd want Mark on a short leash too if I was Cecil. From his perspective, Mark is Earth's best chance against Omni-Man. And if he goes rogue, dies in space, or just leaves to do something coincidentally at the time Omni-Man returns, the Earth is pretty much screwed.

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u/2SP00KY4ME Nov 17 '23

If it takes six days to get there, they could've spared an hour to go talk to Cecil. He could've at least said something like "alright fine, let's listen to what he has to say, bring him over and if he checks out, you can go", even if Mark would refuse.

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

Yeah. Cecil probably could've gotten Mark to listen if he tried to compromise. They're both pretty stubborn at times.

That said, just because it takes 6 days, doesn't mean they can spare any more time. Billions of lives were (allegedly) at stake with who knows how many dying per hour (allegedly). Mark was (allegedly) their only hope, which is why they took the journey, but that doesn't mean they could spare any additional time amidst such (allegedly) tragic and dire circumstances.

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u/Majestic-Pension1527 Nov 17 '23

If Cecil manages to get Hail Mary back somehow, I don't know if they would need Mark. It would have killed Nolan if Mark and Eve hadn't intervened.

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u/Zachariot88 Nov 17 '23

I dunno, I assume Nolan would've just ended up destroying that thing from within its own guts.

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u/ILoveRegenHealth Nov 17 '23

Honestly, Cecil really bothered me in this episode. I know he's been manipulating Mark all season (and even before), but telling Mark that he's like his father for choosing to go save billions of lives is especially scummy.

No, Cecil wasn't against saving lives. That bug alien was not thoroughly vetted, and Mark was leaving too fast for the Pentagon to get to the truth.

And now look where Mark is. Essentially stranded on a planet of deceivers, and seems like those bug aliens and Omni refuse to bring him back. Cecil isn't against saving lives, but against hastiness and heavy consequences. Mark was their only valuable defense left.

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u/finnjakefionnacake Nov 17 '23

i know what you mean, but people keep misusing the word gaslight and it is bothersome because it's a very real and serious thing.

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u/Clouthead2001 Nov 17 '23

Misusing the word gaslight? Bro that’s not even a real word if we’re being honest. It’s a interesting combination of letters but you kinda crazy for actually thinking “gaslight” is a real word. You definitely should reevaluate your worldview man.

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u/finnjakefionnacake Nov 17 '23

i see what you did there 😂

7

u/raknor88 Show Fan Nov 17 '23

After the cliffhanger, I want to think that Cecil knew where Mark was going. They may have claimed not to know where Omni-man went, but he very well could've been lying to protect Mark and keep him from flying off for a second fight he wasn't ready for.

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u/Future-Muscle-2214 Nov 17 '23

Or just meet others Viltrumites who manage to convince him to become one of them.

1

u/arfelo1 Nov 18 '23

How could they possibly know where Onni Man is? Earth barely has the tech to reach Mars. Much less having intel brom the bug planet

1

u/raknor88 Show Fan Nov 18 '23

Publicly Earth barley has the tech to reach Mars. But we've seen that the GDA has tons of advanced tech that the public has no knowledge of. Also, just because we don't have the tech to reach somewhere doesn't mean that we don't have the tech to see/detect what's out there.

1

u/tayroarsmash Nov 18 '23

They didn’t know about Viltrumites so I have my doubts about their intergalactic intelligence capabilities.

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u/JonathanL73 Show Fan Nov 17 '23

Cecil is basically shady Nick Fury

5

u/Napalmeon Nov 17 '23

Debbie called him out on this last episode. He's not going to say so out loud, but his main priority is making sure that Mark listens to him. This is the problem that he always had with Nolan. 

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u/Papa_Razzi Nov 17 '23

Cecil used the same argument about Nolan saying the same thing in a previous episode this season and it worked. It was just a last ditch effort to keep Mark on planet. There’s no way Cecil would ever be like, yeah kid, go leave Earth way more undefended and fly off into space with an alien you just met. Cecil is all about solving immediate problems, he doesn’t have the luxury of time to foster Mark properly. Definitely will bite him in the ass later on, but that’s a problem for later.

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u/tayroarsmash Nov 17 '23

Cecil isn’t trying to raise Mark. Mark probably doesn’t even dominate Cecil’s mind. Cecil is running an intelligence agency whose goal is security in a world that is rapidly escalating past his capabilities. His best asset just turned on him and left behind a new asset and the new asset is questionable, at best, considering how the old one left. Cecil is way way way more interested in manipulating and keeping an eye on Mark than he is about having the lives saved of some alien race he’s never met. I mean, fuck, what if Mark goes to space and meets Viltrumites and is converted? It’s not outside the realm of possibility considering we trusted Nolan until we didn’t. What is Cecil to do if Mark turns? Is there currently anyone on earth that can stop Mark? Maybe the Immortal but it seems inevitable that Mark will surpass the Immortal if he hasn’t already.

If you were Cecil what the fuck would you do?

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u/BardtheGM Nov 17 '23

Cecil has been burned before from a Superhero who decides on his own what he does. That was fine with Omni-man right up until it wasn't. His point is that everybody needs to be accountable, including Mark, and that ignoring chain of command to decide to do something he thinks is better is not okay, especially as Mark promised to follow orders. He was supposed to be earning trust back by being different to his father and actually cooperating.

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u/Bbgirl4lato Nov 17 '23

Yeah its happened twice now where Cecil compared Mark to his father... like Mark is not just a tool, he's an ally. And a fledgling at that. He needs to spread his wings, Cecil would only hold him back and not even realize it.

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u/TheAzulmagia Nov 17 '23

Cecil's been pulling the "You're just like your father" card a few times this season to get Mark to do what he wants. Pretty crummy!

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u/kelldricked Nov 17 '23

I mean Cecil was fucking right about the fact that Mark shouldnt have gone. Cecil want total controll over Mark because he knows what can happen when Mark goes nuts.

Earths greatest defender and one of its biggest threats going off alone in space for a month can be a diseaster. What if he fails, or leads more viltriumates back, what if he gets brainwashed or what if (and this is far fetched) its all a trick of his dad to get to see Mark again?

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u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

I felt Cecil identified the obvious trap for what it was.

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u/LeedsFan2442 Nov 17 '23

His job is to keep earth safe not some alien planet and as we've seen it wasn't real anyway so Cecil was right to say no.

1

u/SMA2343 Nov 17 '23

Cecil is just afraid of Mark turning out like Omni-Man. No one knows what makes a Viltrumite “turn” and that’s what Cecil is trying to figure out. And just trying to gaslight Mark.

And now that Mark has defiled an order from Cecil it gives into that fear that one wrong move and Mark will turn on them. It won’t ever happen, but they don’t know.

1

u/TreeTurtle_852 Nov 17 '23

Cecil is really smart, but constantly gaslighting a teenager is not a good idea to turn them into a well-adjusted adult.

I mean Cecil doesn't really need a well adjusted adult. I'd anything that we'll adjust adult might go, "Hey wait a minute this is BS" and rightfully kick his ass.

1

u/DeltaAlphaGulf Nov 18 '23

Idk that Cecil has really shown himself to be “really smart.” Tbh I think this show makes a lot of the characters look dumber than they should be.

1

u/MRcrowLUV Nov 18 '23

Chaotic neutral

1

u/senoricceman Nov 18 '23

Tbf from Cecil’s perspective he has no idea what Mark’s future holds with him being Omni-Man’s son.

We know Mark is a good guy as the audience, but Cecil doesn’t know that 100%. He trusts Mark, but at the same time is going to keep an eye on him.

I do agree he shouldn’t be making comparisons to Omni-Man.

1

u/Redditer51 Nov 18 '23

He's like Nick Fury (when he's written well). The MCU never really adapted him as well as they could have.

1

u/TheArtistFKAMinty Nov 18 '23

It seems like he's pissed at himself for allowing Nolan to take advantage of him. He relinquished control to play support to Superman, and instead got played by Zod.

His manipulation of Mark feels like it's less about Mark and it's more him projecting all of his feelings about Nolan onto him, overcompensating for his failure to see Nolan for who he actually was until it was too late. He refuses to see Mark as anything other than another potential Nolan. If he doesn't get over himself his need to control Mark I feel like it's going to cause a rift between the two and he's not going to have Mark's trust when he needs it.

1

u/AgentAtrocitus Nov 19 '23

To be fair I don't think he really meant it when he said it. I'm not taking away from the fact that it was cold, I just don't think Cecil truly believes Mark is displaying Nolan-esque qualities there.

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u/MartiniCommander Nov 20 '23

Soldiers need to follow orders. That's all it is. They can have all the free thought they want but there's a reason they don't get opinions on the job. Why? Well look at what happened. Now Mark is alone, stranded on another planet, with his father. So had Mark listened to Cecile he'd have been better off and so would the world.

2

u/rollotar300 Nov 21 '23

that's stupid

The only reason the Earth continues to exist as an independent entity is because Nolan was a soldier who ultimately disobeyed his orders.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 21 '23

I disagree. First of all, Mark isn't a soldier.

Even if he were, soldiers aren't supposed to mindlessly follow orders. I don't encounter the Nuremberg Defense much on the internet these days, so I guess kudos to you? Out of curiosity, what's your line if it's okay to allow billions of alien lives to be extinguished just because you're "following orders?" I'll remind you that Mark and Cecil had no way of knowing for sure whether the bug alien was lying. Mark trusted the story, and that was his right. Mark is the one with superpowers, not Cecil, and Mark ultimately has to make his own moral choices with his own powers.

Third, as someone else just pointed out, "following orders" can lead to really bad consequences. Nolan was a Viltrumite soldier. If he had "followed orders," then he would've killed Mark then extinguished all life on Earth. Is that what you're arguing is the ideal outcome or can you maybe concede that "following orders" isn't always the right thing to do?

Now Mark is alone, stranded on another planet, with his father. So had Mark listened to Cecile he'd have been better off and so would the world.

I haven't read the comics or any spoilers (and please don't tell me if you do!), but the end of episode 3 heavily implied that Nolan didn't return to Viltrum and is making his own path forward. The planet appeared to be peaceful, and he had a new uniform. After all, if Nolan had returned to Viltrum, he would probably be killed for treason; even if he weren't, then he would've told Viltrum what happened and they probably would've already gone to Earth and killed or captured Mark (we saw them interrogate Allen in this episode for that intel).

My guess is that Mark and Nolan will form some sort of reluctant alliance, and so it's entirely possible that Mark going to that planet will set into motion a series of events that will be extremely good. That makes the most sense narratively at this point in the story, especially with Debbie's arc in episode 3.

1

u/Elcactus Nov 21 '23

I disagree, I think it makes him a far worse character to be an idiotic control freak for its own sake. He's far more interesting when he makes morally ambiguous choices for what should be the greater good, instead of Parody # 247 of why the government is incompetent fools.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 21 '23

You may have misunderstood what I meant. Cecil isn't an "idiotic control freak." He's making somewhat calculated decisions to try and control Mark, especially while he's still a teenager.

You also have to understand that he's secretly terrified after what happened with Omni-Man. He mistrusts Mark and is scared of him. Cecil is terrified of any rebellion from Mark, and that's part of why Cecil keeps ordering him around so closely - he's constantly testing boundaries.

Cecil is a fantastic character.

1

u/Elcactus Nov 21 '23 edited Nov 21 '23

I guess if you see it as completely constructed to press that emotional button and he doesn’t believe it it’s a bit less stupid, but still bad in that anyone competent knows attacking someone over something they know damn well isn’t true only serves to push them away. It’s just another form of incompetence; the "abusive parent" manipulation, not the "chessmatser" manipulation.

1

u/StevoJ89 Nov 22 '23

Nah I think Cecil has just seen this movie before and doesn't want Mark to get in shit and ...well look what happened

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u/TechnoHorse Nov 17 '23

Cecil was kind of proven right. Mark shouldn't have trusted that alien. Right from the start it was trying to deceive him with their appearance. Mark was easily manipulated by someone appealing to his desire to do good. Omni-Man knew exactly how to lure Mark in.

11

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Locem Nov 17 '23

Show watchers don't know Omni-man told them that yet.

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u/MindControlledSquid Nov 17 '23

TBF, it's the logical conclusion (I haven't read comics).

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u/seniorpeepers Nov 17 '23

I'd say he was 100% proven right haha

12

u/TrappedInLimbo Nov 17 '23

Yea I wish Mark was like "no Cecil, I doubt my dad ever disobeyed orders to go save billions of lives".

3

u/Kaserbeam Nov 19 '23

but cecil was immediately proven right, because Mark was basically gift wrapped and delivered to his father. if Omni man wanted to he could now easily incapacitate Mark and then go conquer earth and theres nothing Cecil or anybody else can do to stop it.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 19 '23

He could do that anyways

2

u/Kaserbeam Nov 19 '23

Maybe, but Mark would have way more of a chance with Cecil helping him out on earth, and now if Omniman doesn't let Mark leave Earth is down their strongest protector.

8

u/date_a_languager Nov 17 '23

I mean, I don’t exactly blame him. Similar to how Debbie got unfairly blamed for Nolan’s actions by that grieving husband, Mark is always going to be scrutinized every step of the way after Omni man showed the world who he is.

That shit sticks with you, especially since Nolan essentially fooled everyone for decades and, like Cecil said, he would also go off on his own to save lives before he killed the Guardians and everything else afterwards.

5

u/Jake_The_Destroyer Nov 17 '23

I think Cecil is just really bad an explaining out loud that the whole situation is suspicious as hell. 1. An "intergalactic civilization" needing a super hero to stop a meteor shower. 2. This journey only supposedly taking weeks. 3. Cecil doesn't know this but Marks really should've been tipped off when the pilot says 6 days now.

4

u/hikemalls Nov 17 '23

I feel like his argument really should’ve been more “you just met this guy and he started off by lying to you pretending to be someone else, how do you know you can trust him? This could easily be a ploy to leave Earth undefended, he’s provided no actual evidence to back up his plea for help”. Probably still wouldn’t convince him but would be more effective than “do what I say because that’s your job”.

3

u/OfficialPantySniffer Nov 17 '23

those are 44 billion giant bugs. they could have just told him that story to get him away so they could pick the planet clean like locusts while he was gone, just flying him off into some place so far away hed never find his way back on a suicide mission. if anything you should be alarmed at how stupid and naive he is. if this was the fantastic four, silver surfer would have just given mark a ride into a black hole while Galactus consumed the entire planet then fucked off to the next one.

4

u/theyux Nov 17 '23

Cecil knew it sounded suspect. Aliens have ftl but cant deal with astroids?

This was papa bear Cecil.

3

u/Weltallgaia Nov 17 '23

He doesn't seem super pissed off though more "damn kid won't listen to me" than oh shit this is a real problem.

3

u/Revolutionary_Cat222 Nov 17 '23

Yeah, and that makes sense within the context of foreshadowing and subversion as well. He claims that if he’s not listened to, it will cost lives, so to me as a viewer, I’m thinking that the story is going in a way where the conflict of the greater story might be between him and Cecil, but nah dog, Cecil was right in this instance

3

u/KaleidoscopeLeft5511 Nov 17 '23

But he was right, he shouldnt have just left to visit a planet in a different galaxy. It could have been a ruse to get him away from planet earth. Mark should have done due diligence before agreeing to help

3

u/shewy92 Nov 18 '23

And on the third hand, look who was waiting for him, so Cecil was right.

And who goes multiple galaxies away with barely any info? Cecil is used to having a lot of info and basing decisions off of that. Obviously he's gonna say no to going to a random planet of some bug you just met.

I guess Mark never got the "stranger danger"/"don't get into random spaceships" talk

2

u/Upstuck_Udonkadonk Nov 17 '23

Cecil's no goddamn angel, he wants to CONTROL Mark, not just restrain or keep a fail safe.

Omni man was impossible to control but he's ready to control Mark any way possible, even guilting him about his deepest insecurity to the face.

2

u/Treyman1115 Nov 17 '23

I get wheres he's coming from, they really do need Mark on Earth. The guardians are still too new. Without getting things from his perspective though it does make him seem really illogical though. Him comparing Mark to his dad seems more like a last ditch attempt to get him to stay but that's probably cope

2

u/548oranje548 Nov 17 '23

I fully expected mark to quickly turn back and fly straight into the HQ or wherever Cecil was at the time and put him in his place. Id be livid after such a comment. It helps no one to be such a dick

1

u/Kaserbeam Nov 19 '23

and again, prove that invincible is more like his dad than anyone should be comfortable with?

2

u/lordolxinator Rex Splode Nov 17 '23

I agree in principle, and pragmatically for the most part. I think the issue comes with Mark deciding what actions save lives. In this instance? Sure from all available information, Mark's doing the right thing.

But what happens if Mark has to go all Ozymandias sacrificing millions to save billions? We already see in other realities that Mark was persuaded to that line of reasoning, and while Cecil wasn't privy to that information, he certainly saw Nolan's extreme of bringing Earth into the fold for "the greater good".

If he loses control of Mark, Mark risks falling into the same trap. Seeing more of the universe, seeing more planets with the same issues, seeing civilisations with comparatively brief lifespans as he eventually grows dull to the plight of lesser species (as Nolan would put it). At that point pragmatically it's incredibly hard to look beneath the bigger picture because of your longevity, ability to alter things for the better, and noticing the pitfalls of other races.

Mark is a true hero because he doesn't fall for that easy jaded (Nolan might say pragmatic and realistic) view of the universe. He still believes in saving any and every life he can because he was raised with empathy, has strong bonds to some of the "lesser" humans who are far "inferior" to him when it comes to power, lifespan and capability. In spite of those things, Mark stays true to his morals.

But unfortunately, Cecil can't accept that yet. He's too much of a risk. So until they've researched an anti-Viltrumite weapon, he can't allow Mark slack to make decisions without extreme oversight. He has to carefully limit what Mark is exposed to and how he develops. Allow him to have a normal life as Mark? Sure, means he has stronger emotional bonds and convictions to defend humanity. But allow Invincible autonomy? Too risky. Unfortunately as we see at the end, the 42 billion lives at risk excuse was a trick. And while Omni-Man probably isn't going to fight Mark or attempt to sway him back to conquering Earth again in the next episode, it's still a trick Mark fell for (and totally one Cecil is going to hold over him for months).

1

u/Bobthecow775 Nov 17 '23

Not human lives, they don't matter to him.

1

u/Maloonyy Nov 17 '23

Nolan killed so many simply because he was "just following orders". The good parts of Omniman are those where he directly disobeys Viltrumite orders. Cecil not seeing this is pretty stupid from him. Or maybe he does see it but doesn't give a shit and just wants to abuse mark to destroy Viltrumites. It's probably that.

1

u/wispymatrias Nov 18 '23

Cecil is all about his job. He doesn't care if Mark is a good guy or not, he cares if he can control him.

1

u/gr4vitycamilla Machine Head Nov 18 '23

Nah, Cecil was in the right here. Mark got played like a flute.

1

u/Tombot3000 Nov 19 '23

Cecil still has some decent reasoning, though. First they disobey you to do something clearly good like save lives. Then they disobey you for more borderline issues. Then they just start believing they know better than you.

And then you're right where you feared - an insanely powerful, out of control Omni-Man Jr.

1

u/Gasster1212 Nov 19 '23

Yes and no.

A- he has 0 idea what mark is doing there B- Nolan also saved lives regularly. We see him go off planet / dimension to “save lives” C- his main memory of his failings with Nolan is probably that he didn’t see his refusal to take orders as a red flag

So there’s basically nothing he can do on his own that’s going to make him lower Cecil’s guard - maybe at all

1

u/hottytoddypotty Nov 19 '23

Could have been a trap an was a trap

1

u/Elcactus Nov 21 '23

It's kind of a dumb take to be worried over the idea that Omni-man's issue was not following orders. It really hurts the idea that he's a savvy operator when their motivations are predicated on such a inane basis.

1

u/PortugalTheHam Nov 22 '23

He was concerned not because ignoring orders is wrong or saving lives was the right thing to do but because Mark is a nieve kid (17 is still developing mentally/biologically) who doesn't fully grasp the magnitude if the situation yet. Cecil is much older, experienced and has intel that Mark doesn't.

Ultimately he was right. Its not that Cecil doesnt want to save lives. Its that Mark is a kid and that everyone (aliens included) have the capacity of lying. Mark just met an alien who said they need help without evidence? As a grizzled veteran, Cecil was suspicious from the start.