r/FluentInFinance • u/The-Lucky-Investor • 11d ago

“Medicare for All” would save the U.S $5.1 Trillion over 10 years Discussion/ Debate

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/11/30/easy-pay-something-costs-less-new-study-shows-medicare-all-would-save-us-51-trillion
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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

It takes months to get appointments in the US now too. It’s not a socialized healthcare issue, it’s a medical professional shortage issue.

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u/TrustMental6895 11d ago

There's so many new grads that can't get residencies. This is a manufactured issue or the hospital cutting staff to save money.

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u/dskimilwaukee 11d ago

RN here. Hospital cutting staff or running thin to save money. They sure as shit don't pay nurses enough either. All about maximizing profits for the c suites.

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u/GrandmaCheese1 11d ago

Another issue that gets overlooked is the pay for instructors.

In my state, all Nursing instructors (except for clinical instructors) are required to have their Masters with a focus in education, but most positions are about the same pay as a bedside nurse.

Why am I going to go into debt to pursue a significantly higher degree to get paid the same amount of money?

You need more instructors to allow for more potential nurses to hit the workforce.

I’ve always considered education further into my future but can’t justify going back for my BSN, then also my MSN, to make the same amount of money I am now.

If salaries start improving for educators or the requirements start to lower due to “The Nursing Shortage” that we’re all expecting, then I’ll probably get into when I get older.

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u/MizStazya 11d ago

In larger universities, nursing professors are generally paid less than other science degree programs.

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u/Loud-East1969 9d ago

I think that’s the norm for most professions. College professor isn’t exactly a lucrative career nowadays.

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u/Big-Leadership1001 9d ago

At least professors can get tenure and have a guaranteed long term career. Nurses don't know if they will be cut next week let alone where they will be in 10 years.

I think both suffer the same overall problem of executives scooping up all of the increasingly unaffordable money and shitting on everyone else who actually does the work itself.

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u/ValuableKill 9d ago

Your hospital doesn't have a program to help pay for your education for you to get your masters? It might just be because all the hospitals in my area are tied to universities, but for example, I looked it up, and Duke will cover 90% of the tuition for your MSN degree if you agree to go to their college, and have worked for them as a nurse for three or more years.

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u/GrandmaCheese1 9d ago

BSN, but not MSN.

BSN to MSN is still like $20k of debt to pursue a degree that doesn’t earn me an increase in wages to pay it back.

Financially it doesn’t make sense.

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u/vonkeswick 11d ago

maximizing profits for the c suites

well yeah, the CEO definitely earned his yacht and really needs to redo the wood trim in the yacht's kitchen /s

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u/InformalPenguinz 10d ago

redo the wood trim in the yacht's kitchen

I've done general contracting for a few billionaires and millionaires with my dad. Common theme is waste. Oh that imported marble had one imperceptible flaw that will go on the underside? Better just throw that one away... no don't return it, sell it, give it away... throw it in the pit. I've worked on many ranches that have a pit to just throw shit like that away.

New billionaire bought the property? Hmm, they don't love the sink, so we better redo the ENTIRE KITCHEN to match this $15000 randomly imported sink from Italy. Can we salvage the wood? Appliances? Etc?.. nope into the pit.

Ugh.

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u/MizStazya 11d ago

It's because you don't pay for your nursing care. It's rolled into the room charge, so hospitals are highly incentivized to use as little nursing as possible. A 20-year-old who had an appendectomy, gets to the bathroom by themselves, and needs a couple doses of antibiotics and pain meds pays the exact same amount for nursing care as an 80-year-old 400 pound incontinent dementia patient with 15 medications, who needs turning every 2 hours, frequent bed changes, 1:1 feeding, multiple dressing changes, etc. If we charged for nursing care based on the actual amount of nursing time needed and used, they might not be so quick to run us bare bones.

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u/rileyjw90 10d ago

Nurses also spend a lot of money (use a lot of supplies). We don’t make the hospital any money at all. Doesn’t matter that those supplies are necessary and often life-saving, we still open them up and use them.

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u/MizStazya 10d ago

And hopefully charge for them - unlike nurses, most supplies CAN be billed, but we're pretty terrible about actually doing it IME.

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u/rileyjw90 10d ago edited 10d ago

There’s a lot of things at my hospital where there’s not even really a way to bill for things. We don’t scan things to specific patients. It just gets bundled into their stay (flushes, gauze, etc). But there are times bigger things get wasted because they fall on the floor or the practitioner misses and has to try again somewhere else (like placing an arterial line for example) that those things definitely don’t get billed because it’s the staffs fault. I also think of when I used to do CRRT in the ICU (continuous dialysis) sometimes they would decide to end therapy right after we’d started a new set or connected fresh bags of dialysate and those things are sooooooo expensive. Or when they stop the fentanyl/levophed/propofol etc drip after we’ve just hung a new bag or bottle like bro this shit is EXPENSIVE and here we are having to waste almost an entire bag of it!

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u/IndependenceIcy2251 11d ago

I’d say that’s true of every industry these days, from fast food places having like 2 people to stores having one person trying to run a register and stock shelves.

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u/BasilExposition2 11d ago

This is an issue at non profit hospitals too. Health care is like 20% of GDP. Shit is expensive.

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u/atn0716 10d ago

How much are you getting paid?

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u/dskimilwaukee 10d ago

I make 41 and change. Milw WI 4 year RN big jump from 32 when I switched jobs. The huge problem is raises don't go through your department or management. You get a meets exceeds etcetera but it goes to hr anyways so for example I got a significantly exceeds expectations this year and got 3.76%. A coworker that doesn't do any of the shared governance or things like that that I do got 3.5

Edit: spelling

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u/FlixFlix 10d ago

You’re right about units running on skeleton staff with high ratios and few or no PCTs, but the doctor shortage is indeed a manufactured problem by the AMA.

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u/TrustMental6895 11d ago

Move to california $75+ starting and a strong union.

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u/PubstarHero 11d ago

Mom's an RN in CA - She still bitches about repeatedly being understaffed because the hospital doesn't want to pay out and has gotten into fights with management because she is the only one trained on post open heart surgery in her department (which requires 1 on 1 for a nurse), yet they repeatedly under staff the ICU and try to get her to take on multiple patients. She obviously refuses for legal reasons, top being she could lose her license, but its still shit out here apparently.

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u/TrustMental6895 11d ago

What does the union do?

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u/PubstarHero 11d ago

They back her up so she doesn't get fired, but nurse to patient ratio problems is something I've heard my mom pitching about since the early 2000s.

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u/dskimilwaukee 10d ago

would love a union. I'm in Milwaukee Wisconsin though and all 3 hospitals are massive. Will never happen.

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u/KennyLagerins 11d ago

Nursing salaries have risen at a far higher rate than anyone else in a hospital. It’s not at all uncommon to see 6-figure young RNs anymore, making more than some of the Managers and Directors of non-clinical departments.

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u/HotResponsibility829 11d ago

As they should. Nurses are still underpaid like most other workers. Nurses making 6-figures are working more than 40 hours a week the majority of the time as well. Again, good for them. Still not enough. Just like others.

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u/KennyLagerins 11d ago

If everyone is underpaid then nobody is underpaid.

Nurses making six figures where I’m at are working 3x12s which is a fantastic schedule and they relentlessly complain about it. They’re also responsible for less workload than before as more duties are shifted to techs, aides, specialties, and the other departments in a hospital.

I don’t blame them for getting what they can, but don’t complain when you’re getting taken better care of than the rest but can’t see it.

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u/HotResponsibility829 11d ago

I said “most other workers”. Not everyone is

underpaid. One of my parents is a director and the other is a nurse. I see both sides. My director parent is basically on call 24/7. Does not get paid enough. My other parent has 20+ years of experience as well and gets paid very well as they should.

That’s fantastic! Making 54/hr as a nurse is amazing. I definitely wouldn’t be complaining making 6 figures working 36 hours a week. I understand where you are coming from there.

Most workers are underpaid. This is obviously an opinion, but if you look at inflation on life’s necessities compared to wages, it’s not keeping up. That is a macro analysis. Obviously healthcare is it’s own economic situation.

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u/KennyLagerins 11d ago

Everyone says they’re underpaid. The unfortunate things is that most aren’t for their actual body of work (even if it hurts feelings), and some of those yelling about it hardest will be replaced by automation and robotics soon.

Inflation is an entirely different conversation, and massive market corrections just don’t happen overnight.

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u/TrichomesNTerpenes 10d ago

All nurses do is whine making twice as much as house staff for half the hours lol.

120k in NYC for 3 shifts a week and bennies.

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u/Notsurehowtoreact 10d ago

Yeah, this is my experience with nurses as well.

Bedside nursing isn't easy work, but it is insanely lucrative. What's that bit going around, if you removed the top 1000 highest earners in the U.S. the average salary would be around 35k... and nurses make 77k+.

Like, yes, wages across the board could be better, but to make $40+ an hour as a starting wage and act as if you're being slighted the hardest when it comes to wages is ludicrous.

I have a family of nurses and they are all in agreement that they want to make more but they are still doing very well and others have it far worse.

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u/KennyLagerins 10d ago

It just really gets me when they complain about the schedules. A, you should have known even before nursing school what the schedule was, and B. It’s a fantastic schedule.

You work 3 days a week, so you could realistically be out for 8 days in a row and not touch PTO. You could be out for 15 days in a row and only use 3 days of PTO. 12 hours a day isn’t that bad when it’s 3x, hell, a lot of people work 10s 5 days a week or more. Plus there’s shift diffs, hazard pay, overtime, and on and on.

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u/IbegTWOdiffer 11d ago

If you aren't making $35 - $50/hour as a RN, you are letting that 2 year associates degree go to waste.

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u/dskimilwaukee 10d ago

I make 41 and some change. Associates for first two years just got my bsn in year 4. Going back for my masters but an mba instead of the bullshit nursing masters where you don't even make more unless you are an NP but that market is saturated.

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u/Notsurehowtoreact 10d ago

To be fair, $41/hr is double the average salary in Milwaukee.

Wages across the board could be better, but you're not exactly in a terrible spot.

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u/dskimilwaukee 10d ago

oh I know I'm not. I do ok, but I had to earn the 41 and to be honest nursing is a hard job. The ones who make the most tho are the ones who do the least. Executives.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

Lots of grads that don't choose primary care due to low(er) pay and high student loans as well.

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u/Suitable-Juice-9738 11d ago

It is quite literally manufactured by the AMA. They lobbies Congress to restrict residencies so doctors can charge more.

The ADA represents less than a third of doctors and fucked the entire country for them.

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u/demonkillingblade 11d ago

First it was Physician's Assistants and now they need to save more money for themselves so they came out with the Nurse Practitioners.

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u/Whatcanyado420 11d ago

There's so many new grads that can't get residencies

Source? Can tell you this isnt true for FM or IM applicants.

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u/AggravatingSun5433 11d ago

When I broke my hand in February I made a same day appointment the next morning for 10am at urgent care. The appointment cost $80.

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u/whorl- 11d ago

Obviously, these things are location dependent. The availability of care differs by state and geographic classification (urban, rural) and also whether or not the care facility takes your insurance.

I’m guessing you’re insured and that’s why it cost $80? Because when I’ve been uninsured it was like $300 just to be admitted and speak with someone.

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u/AyeYoTek 11d ago

95% of the country is insured. So you have to be a real outlier to not have insurance.

Obviously, these things are location dependent.

So why is the thread about America and not these locations?

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u/Nojoke183 11d ago

Being "insured" and actually having coverage that makes healthcare affordable are two very different things.

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u/SleepyHobo 11d ago

Most insurance plans are going to have a small copay. Then payment plan for the bill you get months later.

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u/Nojoke183 11d ago

"Small" 😂 I've got good insurance by American standards and I still have to pay $1000 before it even starts kicking in fully. Combine that with most Americans don't have $1000 in emergency savings and you talking about a fraction that can actually walk off the hit

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u/njackson2020 11d ago

For a lot of visits you only have a copay. You don't have to pay $1,000 before the copay kicks in. The copay counts towards that $1,000 deductible. Then you will have a out-of-pocket Max each year somewhere between $3,000 and $7,000. In my experience. After that, it is completely covered. You should never have to pay more than your out-of-pocket Max

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u/Nojoke183 10d ago

For a lot of visits you only have a copay

A lot of PREVENTIVE visits sure, but if you've already got a problem or they find one, you're on the hook for up to that deductible and then usually 30-60% of that bill up to that max out-of-pocket.

You should never have to pay more than your out-of-pocket Max

that's only if insurances covers everything which they probably won't. Not to mention lost wages from being out for recover from said major health issues

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u/njackson2020 10d ago

Every plan I have had is usjally a copay for specialist. Only time I had to use coinsurance was on one of my plans for an ER visit. My most recent ones have had co-pays for that too.

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u/No_Tea1868 11d ago

Most insurance deductibles are thousands of dollars. Plans with copays are far rarer than you think. The majority of Americans are hit with the large bill right away.

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u/njackson2020 11d ago

What insurance are you referring to? I have never seen one that doesn't have a copay for things like urgent Care. They generally just vary on how large the copay is

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u/No_Tea1868 10d ago

I worked for a benefits company for several years. We managed Blue Cross Blue Shield / Mercer / Aetna / United Healthcare plans. Several different levels for each depending on what employers wanted to offer. I'm talking about hundreds of thousands of plans overall. None had copays except on prescription plans.

You know which ones do have copays? Medicaid.

Seriously. If you think the majority of Americans are on plans with copays rather than deductibles, coinsurance, and out of pocket maxes, you've got your head up your butt.

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u/BlackMesa_Admin 11d ago

POV: your parents pay for your insurance

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u/SleepyHobo 10d ago

My employer pays 100% of premium thanks. Cope.

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u/Sandgrease 10d ago

Congratulations I guess

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u/RunaroundX 11d ago

Yeah and I've also not been to the Dr even though I have good insurance because I can't afford the $30 copay.

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u/whorl- 11d ago

Being insured and being able to actually see a physician are not the same. Copays are prohibitively expense for a lot of people.

The 5% rate seems to be pulled out of your ass, since the actual number is closer to 10%.

Your last statement doesn’t even make sense; the US has both rural and urban areas. If you click the source you’ll see location by state absolutely matters since a bunch of states have uninsured rates into the teens.

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u/RunaroundX 11d ago

Actually about 7.5% of people were uninsured. So a little less than 95%.

Only a measly 26 million people. Who cares

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u/Big-Leadership1001 9d ago

Two thirds of American bankruptcies are due to insured medical debt. Insurance doesn't mean shit.

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u/FeInfantryCop 11d ago

I never understand it either. I live outside a major city and get same day, next day non emergent appointments at my GP. I can see my specialists in 2 days or less...this is the same area I've seen people claim they wait months for a GP appt but has not been anyone I know or my experience.

Just has to be people lying or not calling to more than 1 GP.

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u/seniordumpo 11d ago

I’ve had patients skip multiple appointments to their doctors for various reasons, then complain that the medical field has failed them. I’m like listen lady, you had 4 chances to go see your doctor to get your results, don’t complain to me that you have been waiting 2 months to find out what’s on the MRI!! I can understand complaining about insurance and difficulty getting GP appointments but damn, patients can be some of the most irresponsible people. Most dog owners would never miss a vet appointment, yet they are rarely as diligent with their own health.

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u/FeInfantryCop 11d ago

You can't reason with people who have their own biases in their own existence. It's like the kids who argue for communism with older people who fled communism. The inability to understand no government or implementation is perfect, is the issue at hand. I'd rather have to have my own insurance, and have much faster doctor appointments than a socialist style Healthcare system that is failing at a fast rate. That's not even comparable to how bad it would be here based solely on our population (more comorbidities than most other western nations).

I guarantee I pay less for my insurance and copay than the 20-30% increase in taxes for a socialized health system.

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u/seniordumpo 11d ago

Truth. Plenty of issues with insurance. It frequently being tied to employment, lack of portability, restricted purchase options. But transferring more responsibility from the individual to the government isnt going to be cheaper or lead to better outcomes.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

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u/FeInfantryCop 11d ago

In the NHS system, the majority of people pay a 40% tax rate. They do not have the defense rate we pay (you can argue we shouldn't have such a massive defense budget but being realistic it will not go anywhere) so the majority of people would see over a 20% tad increase (this includes poor families who are the most in need).

Democrats in California proposed Medicare for all and they determined household taxes would need to be ATLEAST DOUBLED to pay for just their state. (It was an increase of over $12k PER household and you would still be required to pay a form of copay to use it & this was them also limiting what care would be covered to be more stringent).

The more liberal estimates stated CA would require over $450 BILLION per year in tax increases to pay for it (the annual budget is $300 billion).

This isn't "right-wing" anything. That's CA estimates. We've also done studies for SINGLE PAYER Healthcare and federal Taxes would require EVERYONE to pay an extra 20% and that would put us at a higher tax rate than paying for your own insurance. In fact, if everyone had insurance off the market, insurance costs would plummet. The reason they're high is uninsured costs.

Don't be daft because you disagree, this stuff has been studied to death and you're just incorrect.

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u/FeInfantryCop 11d ago

Just some more "right-wing" estimates from liberal think tanks below for your perusal.

CRFB also finds that even a low-end estimate of $30 trillion over a decade “would mean increasing federal spending by about 60 percent (excluding interest)” and “require the equivalent of tripling payroll taxes or more than doubling all other taxes.”

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u/Active2017 11d ago

This is the land of Reddit. Anything that makes America look bad will be upvoted.

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u/FeInfantryCop 11d ago

That is the truth. The problem is people will make the same repetitive claims as truth and when someone has different experiences, even with facts, they don't want to hear it.

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u/Pats_Bunny 11d ago

I'm in San Diego, and have had a mostly pleasant experience navigating the medical system for my cancer over the last few years. I am on some FB groups for similar cancers, and that is not the case around the country. Very location dependent. Also I have Kaiser (good tier at that through my work), and Kaiser SoCal are on their shit. Not every insurance provider is streamlined and in-house like mine.

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u/limukala 8d ago

When I was diagnosed with cancer I was in the oncologists office the next day, and in surgery 5 days later. Treatment came to about $500k in total, I paid all of $3200 out of pocket.

So yeah, care can be pretty damn great in this country if you have good insurance.

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u/Pats_Bunny 8d ago

For sure. I have a $3k out of pocket max per year deductible. I'd be ruined if I had to pay for all the stuff I've gone through in the last 3 years. I'm also fortunate to live close to one of the "hubs" of healthcare innovation in the country.

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u/SippieCup 11d ago

I had a ct scan of my liver a few weeks ago, they found a 30mm growth on it that might be cancer.

The soonest appointment for an mri to find out is 3 hours away and in September and that was after me bitching that I needed something not in November. I live an hour outside of NYC, not in the boonies.

There are a couple places that have earlier appointments, but I can’t really pay the out of network copay.

So now I might just have cancer and not getting it treated for 4 months, which is fun to think about at night, because it would cost a crap ton to get something earlier.

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u/Aromatic_Location 10d ago

Not sure I believe this, since a quick search shows that wait times are typically 3 to 5 days in NYC, but if it's true then go somewhere else. In the Dallas area you can get an MRI within an hour of a doctor ordering one.

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u/Examiner7 10d ago

For real, I've never had a problem getting MRIs almost immediately (Oregon).

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u/SippieCup 10d ago

https://i.imgur.com/82LI7nh.png

I’m in ct, its non critical. If I went to the er i could get one also in an hour. But I don’t want to have a 100,000 dollar hospital stay.

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u/ambulancisto 11d ago

Something similar happened to me and my boss (a medical malpractice attorney) said "Dont go to any of the loc hospitals. I've sued all of them. Go to MD Anderson in Houston or the Mayo Clinic". I thought "can I do that? Will they take my insurance?". Looked up their website and my insurance was listed. Called and they made me an appointment for a couple of weeks later. Within a month I had half my kidney removed.

Do your research on what is actually out of network or not.

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u/SippieCup 11d ago

Yup I am lucky that i have several doctors in my network who all said the same thing when it comes to surgery and treatment.

This is just for the MRI to be done, not for any actual treatment, thus the long delay and going in for the soonest appointment I can. My brother in law is my radiologist at Houston methodist and MD Anderson, so I am in good hands there when he is the one reading it.

Thanks for your support and help!

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u/cezann3 11d ago

because fractures are time sensitive and are completely different type of doctor

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u/countdonn 11d ago

I was seen immediately for stitches and the appointment cost 0 dollars after I fell in a drainage ditch and cut myself in South East Asia. I ripped my toenail off while visiting eastern Europe and was seen immediately, also for zero dollars. Where I live in the US now it's next day for urgent care unless you go to the hospital and wait for hours. It only costs $40 if I ignore the fact I am actually paying thousands of dollars yearly for insurance.

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u/bigexplosion 8d ago

Great, my wife just left an imaging center, took 4 weeks to schedule a CT scan, she had wide open availability and that was their first open appointment.  Now we're gonna schedule surgery in about 6 weeks time.  

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

You had a broken hand. That’s not making an appointment with your PCM.

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u/JermitheBeatsmith 11d ago

I can't imagine going to urgent care with a broken hand.

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u/AggravatingDisk7237 11d ago

I just got seen same day by my GP. They do walk-ins 8-6 everyday.

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u/reptilesocks 11d ago

Good for you. In NYC my past two PCPs had a month-long waitlist.

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u/AggravatingDisk7237 11d ago

I have friends in London who literally joke if they get sick they won’t be seen until next year. I don’t know why people try to say the USA is anywhere near that.

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u/etharper 11d ago

The clinic I go to has walk-ins but you're not going to see a doctor, you'll see a nurse practitioner. In fact i haven't seen my doctor for months, all I ever see are physician assistants because my doctor is booked out months ahead.

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u/AggravatingDisk7237 11d ago edited 11d ago

It’s a clinic homie. You really need to see a licensed doctor? If you have something that extreme go to an urgent care or the ER dude.

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u/Bucket_of_Spaghetti 11d ago

Yep - NPs are fully qualified to treat majority of patients that come in to a walk in clinic

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u/Mastershroom 10d ago

If you have something that extreme go to an urgent care

I work at an urgent care clinic; almost all of our providers are PAs or NPs. We literally have one actual doctor that I know of.

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u/AggravatingDisk7237 10d ago

Then go to an ER. It’s called emergency room for a reason. You’ll see a doctor there.

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u/networkninja2k24 10d ago

Cost you 2k with insurance and 15k within lol.

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u/AggravatingDisk7237 10d ago

Then go to urgent care it’ll cost you $80.

Y’all just wanna complain so bad for some weird reason even though you have what’s recognized as the best advanced care in the world for many aspects. People fly in from all of Europe to get advanced care in the USA

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u/networkninja2k24 10d ago

Bro took my daughter to urgent care. It was $180. Lmao. Stop throwing random numbers. When she was 2, took her in for infection in to ER. It was $2800 deductible with insurance. My response was you talking about ER and then flipped to urgent care cost lol. ER is not the same as urgent care. Urgent care visit was all wait and for nurse to say she doesn’t have strep throat just keep giving Motrin. $180 for wait and nurse to say go back home lmao.

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u/AggravatingDisk7237 10d ago

Dude i said 80 and you said 180 and you just had a fit. Grow up, you get my point.

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u/Kat9935 11d ago

My current one I can get in the same day for everything except like annual physicals and that type of stuff where you schedule it a month in advance. My old Dr you couldn't walk in but you could call and if it was something pressing they would typically get you in as they left several slots a day for someone who had a serious issue that couldn't wait a day or two.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

Congrats. I’ve lived in Florida, Texas, and now Virginia and the only time I’ve had a same day appointment with a PCM is if I got lucky and someone canceled last minute. Both my mother and grandmother still live in Florida and tell me it also takes them months just to be seen.

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u/FeInfantryCop 11d ago

Bad luck then. I'm in Texas and it's same day GP appts and next day if you want not end of day walk in. Specialists are like 2 days for me and that includes back surgeon, neuro surgeon and my cardiovascular surgeon.

Now if you mean initial appointments for a SPECIFIC doctor then yes those can take a month or 2 to wait for an initial appt but even then that's only for really well known doctors and for the initial appt. Once you're an established patient those appts are days away. And if the wait time is too long you just ask for next available and it's that same week. But again that's for people who aren't establish patients (establishing patients is a much longer appt time required).

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

It’s good you’ve had the experience.

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u/FeInfantryCop 11d ago

I mean there's is a reason alot of Europeans/Canadians come here to see specialists. Their wait times can be astronomical and not even be approved if not life threatening. TOS was a surgery I required and I met A TON of Euro/Canadians who came to America to get the procedure due to a year plus wait times and the same cancelations or denials we complain about but even worse.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

And a lot of people closer to the southern border go to Mexico for procedures because it’s cheaper and the wait times are typically shorter. You should know that being from Texas.

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u/FeInfantryCop 11d ago

You mean botox and dental work? Yeah that's normal and also has advisory due to how many infections arise from Mexican surgery crossings.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

Meds and GP/PCM appointments as well.

I’m not sure what your end goal is. I’ve experienced months long waits myself. I had an appointment with a specialist for next week that was just canceled and pushed back to late July due to staffing shortages. This ain’t some figment of my imagination I’ve made up to argue with people on Reddit.

Here are some sources with facts about the current and future healthcare shortage:

https://www.aamc.org/news/press-releases/new-aamc-report-shows-continuing-projected-physician-shortage#:~:text=According%20to%20new%20projections%20published,to%2086%2C000%20physicians%20by%202036.

https://www.oracle.com/human-capital-management/healthcare-workforce-shortage/#:~:text=One%20study%20projects%20that%20if,more%20than%204%20million%20workers.

Just google “healthcare shortage” and you’ll see that there already is a shortage that is projected get worse, no matter how quickly the turn around for appointments with your GP are for you.

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u/FeInfantryCop 11d ago

Healthcare shortage is literally international. It is a huge influx of population with no increase in doctors being graduated. But we still have faster wait times than Europe and Canada. The NHS had to have a law enacted due to 6+ month wait times for CANCER patients. There is literal panels to determine if helping patients is a good use of their limited resources. We do not have that here.

Even our longer wait times is much shorter than Europe or Canada. The average wait time to see a PCP for a NON EMERGENT appointment is less than 2 weeks NATIONALLY. Europe is seeing closer to 14.5 WEEKS to see a doctor. We have it much better here and that's with the issue of running short on Healthcare professionals.

EDIT to add the NHS' History of wait times.

"What matters to individual patients is the time spent waiting. NHS England has an elective care recovery plan to eliminate long waits. Median waiting times stand at 14.5 weeks and only 58% of people are being treated within 18 weeks, so further action will be needed. Eliminating the backlog and restoring waiting times to 18 weeks will be very challenging. The achievements of the early 2000s, when waiting times were brought down from 18 months to 18 weeks, shows it can be done. However, this will require significant investment alongside sustained focus and effective supporting policies."

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u/AggravatingDisk7237 11d ago

So weird. I have family in Florida who don’t have that issue. Specialists are incredibly hard to see but not just general urgent care etc.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

I’m not talking about urgent care. My grandmother isn’t going to be seen at urgent care for her hearing, her general checkups, knee replacement consultations, etc. Now if she falls and breaks her hip, then yes she can go to the ER. But healthcare isn’t just for when you fall and break something.

I’m figuring that everyone bringing up urgent care in these responses only goes to the doctor when it’s an emergency? I had a cousin who did that and he died of cancer because they found it too late. That’s why checkups are so important.

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u/AggravatingDisk7237 11d ago

Me or anyone i know have never had trouble on our regularly scheduled checkups. We schedule in advance and then schedule again when that appointment is over.

My wife needed to see an oncologist for a concern that came up at her yearly physical, the best cancer center in our state got her in NEXT DAY. And that by the way is a cancer center people fly in from Europe to go to because the care is that much better.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

Well I guess if everything is going so great for you, then my grandma and mom must be making up stories about long waits for healthcare. I’ll just tell them to DM you so they can get your docs contact info. They’re in the panhandle, where are you located so I can tell them to get on the wait list there?

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u/AggravatingDisk7237 11d ago

My advice would be to call around! Should be a few specialists that will take their insurance.

I don’t mean to discount them it must be based on the area. I only mean to say don’t compare it to European countries because I’ve heard first hand if they need to see someone now, they literally won’t get in until next year.

0

u/cjthomp 11d ago

Some areas have shit for medical availability.

Just because you're having a good experience doesn't mean it's universal, and unhelpful advice like "try calling around!" is very tone-deaf.

"Have you tried just not being sick?"

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u/Bucket_of_Spaghetti 11d ago

But everything you just described for your grandmother is preventive care (check ups, hearing, consultations) - those things aren’t urgent and are intended to be scheduled in advance. An annual physical is annual - just schedule it a year out each time you see the doc for your current physical. A knee consult can be scheduled months out unless it’s causing chronic pain, in which case go to urgent care for pain management and schedule your consult in the meantime

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

No one said anything about urgent or emergency. The original comment I responded to insinuated they had to wait weeks to see a GP in Europe. I’m saying I’ve had to wait months to see PCMs (same as GPs), as well as specialists, in the United States.

Can you all decide if waiting months to see a PCM is normal or not? Because apparently it’s not in countries with socialized healthcare, but so many of you want to tell me it’s normal in the US.

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u/countdonn 11d ago

It's so difficult and takes so long to see a doctor these days in the US, let alone a specialist even if it's an emergency. If you don't live near a major city then just forget about it. That's the boogeyman I was always warned about with universal healthcare.

It's all horribly discouraging, try calling your health insurance customer support, which puts any public bureaucracy to shame and getting a straight answer about anything if you want to cry in frustration.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

I believe it involves many factors, but the main two being the type of insurance you have and the location you’re in. I have exceptionally good health insurance and live in a top 25 populated city in the US. I can get an appointment with my primary or someone else in clinic almost guaranteed same week. My mental health provider I see every month and have never had an issue with scheduling. Just yesterday my daughter had a sick visit with the pediatrician, saw a pediatric surgeon, and had an ultrasound done before lunch time - none of it scheduled before hand and my total cost was $45. Her non-emergent surgery is scheduled for Monday and I’ve already received a cost estimate for surgery + 3 day recovery for $250. I’m not ignorant though, I completely understand I fall into the 0.1% of Americans who have trouble free access to healthcare. My point here is that it IS possible for America to not be so fucked with healthcare. I just wish all insurance companies made it this easy for everyone.

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u/DGGuitars 10d ago

It is worse in nations with uni healthcare and gets even worse in nations like Spain where there are set budgets that run out.

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u/hidazfx 11d ago

Made a doctor's appointment with McLaren in Michigan back in February. Got cancelled a few days before in April because the doctor went on vacation. Had to have it rescheduled for July. I swear if it was serious I could've fucking died by now...

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u/RelationPatient4136 11d ago

That’s simply not true. Walk into any UC and you’ll be seen instantly

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

The comment I was responding to was about seeing GPs or PCMs, not urgent cares.

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u/RelationPatient4136 11d ago

You can get imaging and quick care at a UC who cares if your specific gp is popular and therefore booked (not to mention there are plenty with same day appts if needed I literally just found 2 in my area from a cursory google check)

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

I’m not talking about emergencies, I’m talking about general care. I shouldn’t have to wait until my health is urgent to be seen. You bootlickers will make up anything to make you feel like everything is fine. Im glad your experience is going better than others, but you can’t just walk in and be seen for regular healthcare in a lot of the United States today.

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u/RelationPatient4136 11d ago edited 11d ago

You can always be seen almost immediately in US. There are countless studies on wait times here so calling someone a bootlicker to defend your objectively wrong position is peak brainrot

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

Assuming that your experience is everyone’s experience is peak brainrot.

Plenty of sources discussing that healthcare worker shortage below

https://www.aha.org/fact-sheets/2021-05-26-fact-sheet-strengthening-health-care-workforce

https://onlinenursing.duq.edu/post-master-certificates/shortage-of-healthcare-workers/#:~:text=Why%20Is%20There%20a%20Shortage,care%2C%20often%20from%20physician%20specialists.

https://www.oracle.com/human-capital-management/healthcare-workforce-shortage/#:~:text=One%20study%20projects%20that%20if,more%20than%204%20million%20workers.

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u/RelationPatient4136 11d ago

Nice red herring. No1 said there wasn’t a shortage here just that wait times were still better here than elsewhere:

A study by the Commonwealth Fund, a nonpartisan research foundation that promotes improved health care access and quality, showed that 57 percent of adults in Canada who needed a specialist said they waited more than four weeks for an appointment, versus only 23 percent who said so in the U.S. For emergency physician visits, 23 percent of Canadians and 30 percent of Americans said they could get in to see the doctor the same day, but 23 percent of Americans and 36 percent of Canadians waited more than six days.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

I’m telling you I’ve waited months for appointments. You’re saying you haven’t so it must not be true.

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u/RelationPatient4136 11d ago

There is literally verifiable evidence that for emergency and elective care we have lower wait times. The only place we are out performed is general practice and that’s honestly because most people don’t use the pcp for anything other than wellness visits.

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u/mannsion 11d ago

It depends on many things.

When I needed an MRI, I was in there two days later getting an MRI. When I needed an endoscopy the earliest they could get me in was 6 weeks away. But I had the choice of getting an endoscopy 2 hours away the next day and chose to wait instead.

When I crashed my ATV and was carted into the ER they dropped everything and took me back immediately.

Ime, when I wait it's because there's no harm in waiting, it's not an emergency, and if it's an emergency there's 0 wait.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

Seeing my PCM or specialists is what has taken weeks to months for me. If I accidentally saw off my arm while I’m doing some wood working, I’m sure I can get shuttled by ambulance to a hospital and be seen relatively quickly.

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u/mannsion 11d ago

I think that really comes down to availability. My primary care physician generally can slot me in within days of a phone call, but as he get's more popular and books up it'll take longer, he's super young and great so I imagine it won't be long before I'm waiting, but yeah.

This is why I employ other services. If I have a physical or have questions etc yeah I'll schedule with my Primary Care physician. But if I think I have pneumonia I'll just walk into Urgent Care.

And with urgent care I use the new online scheduling system and text messages, so I can checkin from home and just head there when the wait timer get's to about 30 mins estimated.

My insurance covers me anywhere I want to go.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

I can’t go to urgent care for checkups, sadly. I’m glad the healthcare system is working out so great for some people, but it’s not that way for everyone. I don’t live in a big city or rural country, just a middle of the road average area. I don’t decide where I get referred, my insurer does. And I have to wait as long as I have to wait.

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u/RobHazard 10d ago

Yup can confirm. Been waiting since December to see a doc to get cleared for anesthesia to get my wisdom teeth out. Think I'll finally get in in August? Meanwhile I prepaid the dentist and they're trying to keep the money without surgery because "it's been so long"

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u/0OOOOOOOOO0 11d ago

One that’s by design in the U.S. They limit the number of residency slots to keep salaries inflated.

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u/robbzilla 11d ago

It took my wife a week last month when she made an appointment.

Last year, we were able to get an appointment for our daughter within the day.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

I’m glad it’s worked for you that way. It’s not the case for many of us. My wife had to wait two months earlier this year for her initial intake appointment after we moved to another state.

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u/uChoice_Reindeer7903 11d ago

No it doesn’t. If you want to see a specific doctor, yes, it could take a while but if you don’t care and just want to be seen and are willing to drive 20-30 minutes, you can almost always be seen the same day.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

I guess since it hasn’t happened to you it must not be real.

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u/2lame2shame 11d ago

Shortage created by not hiring.

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u/r2k398 11d ago

I can get a same day appointment most of the time. At worst, the next business day. If it was a little serious, I would go to an urgent care. If it was really serious, I would go to an ER. Both of those are same day.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

I waited two months to see my PCM for the first time. Waited from March to May. Even now there’s at least a few weeks wait. I guess since everyone has an anecdotal response about how they can see their PCM whenever they want I must just be making it all up in my head.

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u/Active2017 11d ago

Honest question, why is two months so ridiculous if you are not experiencing any problems and just going for an intake appointment? You realize other people are actually sick and are going to be prioritized right?

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

If I’m going to be waiting anyway, then I shouldn’t be paying a premium. Everyone says socialized healthcare causes long wait times, but it’s not much better when we’re paying monthly for health insurance and copays per visit, plus meds. One unlucky illness or accident could easily leave you with hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical debt for a subpar system.

We already pay more for healthcare. Why am I paying more for weeks or months long waits just like many other countries with socialized healthcare?

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u/The-Old-American 11d ago

Which would be GREATLY exacerbated by introducing about 25 million more people into the system. This my only real argument against some sort of national healthcare system. And it's not really "against" just a "we need a reality check before we just run headlong into it".

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u/SeanHaz 11d ago

Medical licensing is a government protected monopoly.

Its not socialised medicine but there is heavy government involvement in healthcare.

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u/Netflixandmeal 11d ago

That’s not true really. You can go to an urgent care or er and get seen right then if your foot was ran over by a car.

For something non emergency? Sure an appointment may be a few weeks out.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

If you read carefully, the comment I was responding to was referencing waiting weeks to see a GP. I said I had to wait a couple months to see my GP. No one said anything about urgent care or emergency rooms, but the vast majority of the responses I’m getting to this comment seem to have missed that.

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u/Netflixandmeal 11d ago

Your comment was in relation to a comment of having to wait to see a gc for an emergency. The emergency being having your foot ran over by a car.

If you read my comment I said sure, an appointment with a gc can take a couple of weeks. Just like any other non emergency appointment of any other part of your life.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

I never said anything about an emergency. I said this specifically:

“It takes months to get appointments in the US now too. It’s not a socialized healthcare issue, it’s a medical professional shortage issue.”

You’re making up narratives in your head, mate. You should make an appointment with a psychotherapist.

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u/Netflixandmeal 11d ago

You replied to a comment talking about waiting to get a foot seen from getting ran over by a car. Do you have ADD?

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

They said their foot was run over and they were “told the same thing” in regards to taking Tylenol. They did not say it took weeks to be seen for their foot that was run over. If nothing is broken, then Tylenol is all a doctor can recommend in that situation.

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u/25nameslater 11d ago

No it doesn’t? It takes usually 2 days for a regular dr if you’re ill, immediate care centers 30 minutes. If you need a specialist usually 2 weeks is standard.

If your regular doctor takes more than 3 days choose a different doctor or go to immediate care.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

Yea I wish I could just choose a different specialist. My insurer decides where I get referred to. I’m glad you’re doing so well, but this is not the case for me and many other people.

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u/larryp1087 11d ago

With a primary doctor sure. But I have never had to wait to see a doctor for a sickness. Urgent care will see you without an appointment.

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u/strait_lines 11d ago

Maybe where you are, I can see a dr the same day.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

I’m happy for you, pal 👍

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u/wildcherryphoenix 11d ago

I get same day specialists all the time. I'm in a big city with a few large hospital networks, but I have rarely had to wait more than a month even for non-standard tests.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

I’m happy for you. That’s not my experience

1

u/wildcherryphoenix 11d ago

I hadn't thought about it before, but I guess easy medical access is something big to consider when deciding where to live. Thanks for sharing your experience.

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u/garibaldiknows 11d ago

This is not true.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

This wasn’t your experience so it must not be true. Let’s shutdown Reddit everybody! If your experience doesn’t match this guy’s, then it’s not true!

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u/garibaldiknows 11d ago

Can’t the same be said for your comment? Just because it happened to you doesn’t mean it’s the average experience.

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

I never said it was everyone’s experience. I said:

“It takes months to get appointments in the US now too. It’s not a socialized healthcare issue, it’s a medical professional shortage issue.”

I know I’m not the only one too. Here are sources stating there are healthcare shortages across the globe, as I stated in my original comment, that apparently ruffled some many feathers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9086817/

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.oracle.com/human-capital-management/healthcare-workforce-shortage/&sa=U&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwjWgJSUle6GAxWLwQIHHdo3CAYQFnoECCsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw15NMIz21Zvlhu9K2tM_EE1

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u/garibaldiknows 11d ago

But it doesn’t take months for me. So we’re both guilty of the same thing imo

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

The facts are linked above.

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u/Mack_Blallet 11d ago

Must be unique to your region. Walk in clinics are everywhere here. An abrupt fever doesn’t usually constitute some sort of specialist that operates on appointments though,

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 11d ago

Who said anything about a fever? Every comment on here has created some narrative that doesn’t exist in my original statement. I was responding to a comment about seeing a GP.

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u/Mack_Blallet 11d ago

Sorry, I responded to the wrong comment.

1

u/njackson2020 11d ago

Where at? I was having some knee pain and literally saw my PCP the next day. Are you referring to new patients for regular checkups?

1

u/AdventurousCourt4452 11d ago

Not true. Maybe for a physical. If I call with a new issue I’m seen within the week sometimes next day

1

u/AdventurousCourt4452 11d ago

Eh I guess maybe for specialists could be longer…

1

u/Teex22 10d ago

Somewhat because they're all disappearing off to Australia because they get treated right down there.

1

u/Kindly_Formal_2604 10d ago

I set an appointment today with a specialist to do a heart and lung scan in 5 days. Anecdotal, but I've never in my life scheduled a doctors appointment out more than a week or two and I go 6 or so times a year for medication monitoring stuff.

1

u/nomansky94 10d ago

Took me a couple of months to see a doctor just to get a referral to see a dermatologist to get medication for my cystic acne. This was during the pandemic so that added wait time.

1

u/Chris210 10d ago

The medical professional shortage is over. Now what we have is a “hospital administration found out nurses and doctors are capable of working under dangerous staffing ratios, so let’s keep it going! Daddy needs a 5th yacht!!”

1

u/Classy_Shadow 10d ago

Idk, I got in immediately (as in same day) both times I’ve gone in the last year.

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u/Ok_Energy2715 10d ago

That’s simply not true. I can see my GP same day, usually. Urgent cares are everywhere. And now there are online options where you can have a virtual visit in a few minutes for very short money.

1

u/Cadet_Stimpy 10d ago

I guess since you can see your GP same day, everyone must be able to. Everyone that says they’ve had a different experience must be making it up.

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u/Ok_Energy2715 10d ago

It goes the other way too. Having socialized medicine doesn’t mean you’re seeing a doctor the same day.

1

u/Cadet_Stimpy 10d ago

Cool. At least in a socialized system I wouldn’t have to worry about medical debt or an illness bankrupting me.

1

u/Ok_Energy2715 10d ago

Thats what insurance is for. You have car insurance, home insurance, life insurance. They all work very well. Unfortunately in the US we have killed the health insurance as a service by tying it to employment, and setting the norm that a third party will pay for everything. Socialized medicine sounds great in theory, but the fact of the matter is that the countries who have very good socialized medical systems are free riding on massive US health industry spending, on research, pharma, and education.

1

u/Cadet_Stimpy 10d ago

Yea the 40-50 other people that had the same original response are all parroting similar things as you. I’ve had this discussion multiple times across multiple threads, citing multiple sources and factual discussion points. You’re entitled to your opinion and frankly I’m not interested in it.

I’m sure there’s someone else on Reddit more willing to argue with you. Go find a newer post to spar over your views.

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u/Ok_Energy2715 10d ago

Likewise. But keep on believing that when you socialize industries it’s all unicorns and rainbows. That was certainly the lesson of the 20th century.

1

u/networkninja2k24 10d ago

This! I am tired of this argument people have to wait.

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u/Wtygrrr 10d ago

Doesn’t take me months except in very specialized scenarios.

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u/Wtygrrr 10d ago

Doesn’t take me months except in very specialized scenarios.

1

u/Weekly-Surprise-6509 10d ago

Its a bureaucratic nightmare issue

1

u/Loud-East1969 9d ago

Where do you guys live. I’ve never waited more than a week for an appointment with a private provider and even the VA manages to get you seen in less than a month nowadays. You’re literally paying more for worse care.

1

u/karma-armageddon 7d ago

Too many people running up $100,000 in forgiven debt for a "Pakistani Gender Studies" degree instead of going to be a doctor.

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u/thatnameagain 7d ago

Urgent care centers are walk-ins that accept insurance

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u/Cadet_Stimpy 7d ago

My original response was referencing making appointments with GPs. This country has a massive reading comprehension problem

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u/thatnameagain 7d ago

The fact that anyone is talking about booking a GP appointment because you think you have the flu is throwing me off.

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u/tr7UzW 11d ago

It takes months to get appointments because the greedy insurance companies control how many patients a doctor can see in a given day. I learned firsthand. I wax told if I pay out of pocket u could see the doctor the next day. The staff member told me the doctor met his quota for insurance covered patients.

2

u/Bee-Aromatic 11d ago

My wife, mother-in-law, and sister are all in healthcare. Wife’s an RN for more than a decade who’s done both inpatient and outpatient nursing and served in leadership positions up to the director level. My MIL’s been a PA both inpatient and out for nearly 40yrs. My sister’s an inpatient PA for about a decade. I hear about this every day.

The bottleneck is not insurance companies limiting how many people a provider can see. In fact, the insurance companies have zero to do with it. The bottleneck is the number of people a provider physically can provide adequate care for in a limited timeframe. Management pushes for them to see as many as humanly possible because that’s how they get paid. The definition of “adequate” often drifts because there’s only so many hours in a day and addressing a patient’s concerns properly can take time. They need more people.