r/politics • u/bustersnuggs5011 Pueblo • 4d ago

Biden’s Family Tells Him to Keep Fighting as They Huddle at Camp David Soft Paywall

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/30/us/politics/biden-debate-anxious-democrats.html
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u/coldphront3 Louisiana 4d ago

The obvious issue that Democrats would run into in the event of Biden dropping out would be finding a new candidate that they think can get the votes to beat Trump within 4 months.

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u/Deesing82 Utah 4d ago

and part of me has been thinking that with only 4 months to work, the GOP hate machine might not be able to get spun up on a newer candidate

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u/cmnrdt 4d ago

Guess what: anyone voting for Trump was going to vote for him regardless of who the other guy is. Which is more difficult, Trump convincing his supporters to switch their target, or Democrats convincing their entire base to get behind a completely new candidate less than 5 months before the election when most primary votes have already been cast?

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u/tripping_on_phonics Illinois 4d ago

Democrats’ entire base is already motivated to vote against Trump. The key demographic that your comment omits is independents who will most likely not vote for Trump, but will be quite likely to stay home or vote for a third party.

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u/barowsr 4d ago

Ding ding ding.

90% of the electorate is already set. About half are voting for Trump, period. Half are voting against Trump, period. It doesn’t matter if it’s Biden, Whitimer, Harris, Mickey fucking Mouse.

It’s that 10% that’s trying to decide who they will vote for, or if they’ll stay home. And news flash, we need 6-7% of those 10% to vote Dem. The question is will that 6-7% be more motivated to choose Biden, or Whitmer? Or Newsome? Or any other of the other 5-6 big name Dems?

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u/saypsychpod 4d ago

I agree except for Harris who polls extremely poorly

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u/mrpeabody208 Texas 4d ago

And I'm not sure Mickey Mouse is a Democrat.

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u/MechanicalTurkish Minnesota 4d ago

If you are a Scottish lord then I am Mickey Mouse!!

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u/Spiff76 3d ago

“How Dare He!” dramatic pause, fourth wall break, punch sound effect

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u/TheCwazyWabbit 4d ago

I watched him on South Park, he's gotta be a fascist.

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u/barowsr 4d ago

Even she was within same % gap as Trump in last data for progress poll. But nonetheless, of the eight-ish possible alternatives, she’s probably the weakest

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u/SkyriderRJM 4d ago

It is very possible Harris polls a lot better with Biden as her alternative.

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u/hintofinsanity 3d ago

She currently polls better than Biden

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u/NeonArlecchino California 3d ago

I am not a fan of hers, but I think she could do it if she paired with a progressive VP. Jamaal Bowman is looking for a job and selecting him would send a message about standing for progress and against foreign election interference.

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u/GoBackToLurk1ng 3d ago

Get rid of Kamala and get the successor in as VP. Obama what you up to these days?

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u/Whostartedit 4d ago

I am independent but thinking of registering dem so i can join this phone bank where you call democrats in battleground states

https://democrats.org/call/

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u/barowsr 4d ago

I really like to hear this

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u/Deaner3D 4d ago

This reality always makes me admit I truly don't understand independents. Or, rather, I don't understand the mindset voting R then D then R again. I'm like "pick your fucking issues then pick that candidate, geeze!"

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u/rivsnation 4d ago

Locally I get not being tied to a party, but after Trump I don’t understand an independent who hasn’t made up their mind already. Unless they’re using the title to stop people from ostracizing them about their politics.

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u/Popular_Table8654 2d ago

I’ll put the corruption, ethical, hypocritical issues that exist in both parties aside. On the issues, for me it’s because both parties stances/talking points on issues is extremely narrow and usually intellectually dishonest if not outright dishonest.
For example, on immigration: there are like 8 different kinds of immigration(lottery, political asylum, work, illegals at the border, etc). Yet, the debate from both parties basically centers on the southern border is definitely not nuanced. Per the DNC, if you object to an open border you are a privileged racist asshole. Per Trump, not even German Au pairs are gonna be allowed in.

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u/Deaner3D 2d ago

Some issues are invented by one side as a wedge. I think the border security qualifies as that. Granted, it's a concern, but the hyperventilating about it on the right is what's driven the narrative. You can tell it's a wedge issue because when they had an offer from Dems to work on it they collapsed bipartisan legislation because it was seen as helping them more politically if left unfixed.

Examining other classical issues though there are stark differences.

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u/Popular_Table8654 2d ago

Biden completely ignored the border for three years. And it’s not like the Republicans were quiet about the issue. They made an issue about pretty much on day 1. I don’t like the Republicans failing to do their job this year but it kinda offends me when the DNC tries to take the high ground now, and say “see, we tried”. They didn’t do shit until they realized normal people might actually hold it against Biden in the election.

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u/hous26 4d ago

Its about turnout. Dang near everyone has a preference one way or the other on the next president, but Biden's debate performance will cost him turnout because it created a lot of doubts. He can't afford to lose votes in swing states and hes not going to get some folks out to the polling stations or their mailboxes that he otherwise would have gotten.

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u/sir_mrej Washington 3d ago

They'll be more motivated to vote Biden than anyone else on that list

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u/EnvironmentUseful229 4d ago

Other than Biden, as the Democratic minority leader, Hakeem Jeffries is closest to being the standard bearer of the Democratic party. I think the country would be well served if Biden nominated Jeffries to take his place.

While we're at it, I'd love to see Katie Porter as the VP.

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u/SilentJoe1986 New York 4d ago

I'm independent. I'm voting for the candidate most likely to beat Trump and third party isn't it. I've seen a Trump presidency, and a Biden presidency. Biden is the better choice.

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u/jetlightbeam 4d ago

I'm of a mind that that 10% people keep talking about are made up of two main groups. The informed voter and the uninformed voter.

The informed voter analyzes the platform of each candidate and makes a decision based on whoever is closest to their ideals. There is no way an informed voter is going to choose trump over biden, and as such, have already made up their mind.

The uniformed voter will probably not decide until day of and then only choose by flipping a pencil or playing eeny meeny miney moe and as such are completely irrelevant to the conversation.

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u/gingerwhale Texas 3d ago

Exactly. There are no undecided voters, just uninformed voters.

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u/Fastphilly1187 4d ago

“I’m independent” and I’m voting for the candidate most likely to beat Trump. You are not fooling anybody, independents do not hold allegiance to either party and for you to make your “Anybody But Trump” decided vote in June makes your “Independent” claim laughable.

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u/standardsizedpeeper 3d ago

What? You think that an independent who has seen the two men do the job can’t possibly know who to vote for by now? I mean, also, having seen Trump do the job there’s a lot there that would disqualify him. I was a Republican until Trump’s presidency and was even pretty optimistic about him for a year. Where we are now makes me not a Republican and not a Democrat but also I’ve not heard of a single person I wouldn’t rather want to be president than Trump other than maybe Elon Musk.

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u/ragingreaver 3d ago

I'd vote for a literal sandwich with the Weekend At The Bernie's prop as VP over Trump, if that is what it took to keep him out of office. Trump has successfully turned the election into a question of "do you want the USA to turn into the Fourth Reich this upcoming year or no?"

And THAT is the thing: I would LOVE to vote a third party and tell the Dems to suck it, but right now, doing that runs the risk of seeing this nation drown in a tide of blood. Project 2025 is a declaration of war, and it is high time, as a nation, we started treating it as such.

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u/sir_mrej Washington 3d ago

Independents at least KNOW Biden.

The debate was watched by 50mil viewers, down from 70mil in 2020.

You fail to realize how much regular people DONT follow politics.

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u/DolfLungren 3d ago

Dems entire base is not (yet) motivated to show up on Election Day, this takes the work.

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u/PissNBiscuits 3d ago

This exactly. After the debate, what is more likely for an independent who doesn't like Trump, but doesn't exactly hate him: Vote for Biden (who was a complete and total shit show and barely looks like he can function) or stay home? My bet's on the latter.

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u/tlsrandy 3d ago

A new candidate doesn’t have time to convince undecideds to vote for them.

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u/eilertokyo 4d ago

Dems base is being openly manipulated to think it’s perfectly ok to abstain from voting because Biden didn’t single handedly solve some of the most complicated political problems to ever face a president.

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u/NeonArlecchino California 3d ago

Numerous US presidents (including Reagan) have gotten Israel to do what they want by threatening to withhold aid. It's a well tested method for getting them to stop doing evil shit such as their current genocide.

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u/Coolegespam 3d ago

It's a well tested method for getting them to stop doing evil shit such as their current genocide.

Words have meaning. The attack on Oct 7th was a genocidal act by Palestine and a deceleration of war. Israel responding was self defense, and they've fought a war with some of the lowest casualty to combatants (~1:1) of any Urban combat in the 20th-21st. Even the UN would expect 9 civilians for every combatant. If this is a genocide, then virtually every war fought was a genocide. Of course, we both know the only real difference is that Israel is the only Jewish country in the world.

I applauded Biden for the work he's done in the middle east, and with Israel and Palestine. It's a big reason why I'm voting for him. Because you know, Trump want's Israel to just nuke them and would probably declare them a pariah afterwards.

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u/NeonArlecchino California 3d ago edited 3d ago

Almost an entire country's infrastructure leveled, civilians and aid workers specifically targeted, aid trucks allowed to be raided by terrorists while the IDF guards them from the drivers, hundreds of genocidal statements from members of the Israeli government and IDF officials and members that I can provide an incomplete version of since too many come out to adequately record, a temporary ruling of "plausible genocide" by the ICJ as the investigation continues, safe zones bombed after members of the IDF claim they're still safe, farms destroyed for no reason beyond starving the population, war crimes constantly posted online by laughing IDF, entire buildings destroyed without any claim of terrorist usage, land being sold while the people pushed off of it or their families may still live, Palestinian hostages being raped to death and tortured in Israeli concentration camps, and anyone above the age of 12-15 being labeled a combatant to create the false numbers you're claiming. The final point is especially easy to prove false since Israel often targets terrorists as they get home to their families to kill their target while also murdering their family. A 1:1 ratio of civilians and combatants killed is impossible to create that way unless you wrongfully count anyone related to a terrorist as a combatant.

Furthermore, the biggest thing is that Oct 7 was a response to thousands of Palestinians being murdered and kidnapped by Israel in the decades leading up to it and peaceful Palestinian protestors having limbs shot off by IDF. That response only had 1200 deaths which even with a majority of them being civilians, many victims were IDF and an unknown number were former IDF. The goal of the hostage taking (that was reported shortly after and I haven't heard updated) was to trade for thousands of Palestinian hostages Israel is indefinitely detaining and torturing. Considering the recent operation that saw over 250 Palestinians killed (with most of them being civilians) for 6 hostages being deemed acceptable by Israel and the United States, Oct 7 would be a more legitimate military operation than Israel's operations since it had a higher number of hostages attempted being rescued vs number of people murdered and kidnapped. If all lives are treated equally, have a right to defend themselves, and you truly believe Oct 7 was a genocidal action: then everything Israel has done is too.

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u/Coolegespam 3d ago edited 2d ago

Almost an entire country's infrastructure leveled

Because they civilian structures to wage war.

civilians and aid workers specifically targeted

One of the lowest civilian to combatant death ratios shows they're not. You also have a problem with the numbers from Palestine not fully adding up.

aid trucks allowed to be raided by terrorists while the IDF guards them from the drivers,

Because aid organizations have been found to transport weapons to Hamas. A violation of international law.

hundreds of genocidal statements from members of the Israeli government and IDF officials and members that I can provide an incomplete version of since too many come out to adequately record

Yeah, in response to the genocidal actions of Palestine towards Isreal. That's not proof of genocide.

a temporary ruling of "plausible genocide" by the ICJ as the investigation continues

Not what they said.

farms destroyed for no reason beyond starving the population

That's war, that's what happens when you attack civilians and start a war. According to the UN The population isn't starving. Being at risk is not the same thing.

war crimes constantly posted online by laughing IDF

You mean like raiding a music festival, raping women to death and then dragging their bodies through the streets while people laugh and spit on their corpse? Warning on that link, it's graphic. (Because this is what Palestine did.)[https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/middleeast/sexual-assault-october-7-israel-witness-int/index.html]

safe zones bombed after members of the IDF claim they're still safe

Hamas stores weapons in Civilian structures and areas. IDF legally hits those illegal cashs and the secondary explosions kill civilians because Hamas used those areas for illegal war operations. Be mad at Hamas for putting their own civilians in danger.

entire buildings destroyed without any claim of terrorist usage

I've not seen that, in all the reporting everything has always come back as having a Hamas link of some kind.

land being sold while the people pushed off of it or their families may still live

Gaza is a warzone, what's happening in the West bank is a separate issue, and one I don't agree with.

Palestinian hostages being raped to death and tortured in Israeli concentration camps

Bullshit, unless you can provide a source. On the other hand, Israel hostages have been raped.

and anyone above the age of 12-15 being labeled a combatant to create the false numbers you're claiming

Palestine uses child soldiers and even child suicide bombers, that's not in debate it's a fact, and no they're still counted as children and non-combatants by Palestine. Which is where most of the numbers come from.

With that, I'm done. All your points are incorrect or at the very least inaccurate. You're only getting your information from anti-Jewish and anti-Israel sources. Look at things with a more critical mind, because right now, you're defending a country that's using child soldiers. That raped civilians and then desecrated their corpse. It's beyond sick what Palestine has done, and you're choosing to defnding it.

EDIT: Well, he blocked me so I can't respond. I shouldn't be surprised they had no follow up for Palestine's use of child soldiers. They never do.

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u/NeonArlecchino California 3d ago edited 3d ago

Because they civilian structures to wage war.

Not 90% of structures. The most notorious IDF casualties came when a Hamas rocket exploded the explosives the 28 terrorists were using to level an empty apartment building. If it ever was a Hamas unit, it wasn't at that point.

One of the lowest civilian to combatant death ratios shows they're not. You also have a problem with the numbers from Palestine not fully adding up.

That link doesn't support you and it even states that the people lost under rubble cannot be accounted for. The least trustworthy part of the numbers is that they're revised for accuracy.

Because aid organizations have been found to transport weapons to Hamas. A violation of international law.

Times of Israel is a hasbara rag that doesn't (typically) clean up its lies. You also have Israel blocking medical kits claiming that they're weapons so that claim loses all validity. That said, at least we can agree that the people raiding the trucks while the IDF protects them are terrorists.

That's not proof of genocide.

It is proof of the intent of the policymakers. Intent counts for a lot in the rulings on genocide taking place.

Not what they said.

That is what they said when the ruling is that genocidal protections may be needed for Palestinians and that the claims of genocide are plausible. What you're doing is equivalent to claiming that BLM is a black supremacy movement because the Too isn't directly there.

That's war, that's what happens when you attack civilians and start a war.

International law prohibits destroying assets vital to human life. You're admitting that Israel is committing war crimes while ignoring the thousands of civilians murdered or kidnapped in the years leading up to Oct 7.

Because this is what Palestine did.

Hamas, not Palestine. Either way, Israel shouldn't use terrorist actions as a guideline if they want to be legitimate. Then again, one of their leaders did recently praise Hitler's methods so that is rather mask off.

Hamas stores weapons in Civilian structures and areas. IDF legally hits those illegal cashs and the secondary explosions kill civilians because Hamas used those areas for illegal war operations. Be mad at Hamas for putting their own civilians in danger.

That isn't close to what I said. The IDF is sending out maps of safe zones and then bombing those zones. If it happened as you're claiming then they wouldn't send out the maps until after the weapons are cleared out.

I've not seen that, in all the reporting everything has always come back as having a Hamas link of some kind.

Date farms and monuments are definitely hives of evil, am I right?

Bullshit, unless you can provide a source.

Here you go:

A leaked draft of the UNRWA report detailed an interview that gave a similar account. It cited a 41-year-old detainee who said that interrogators “made me sit on something like a hot metal stick and it felt like fire,” and also said that another detainee “died after they put the electric stick up” his anus.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-detention-base.html

I'm sure you'll claim UNRWA isn't reliable (even though they've been cleared of the charges), but the NYT was comfortable using them as a source.

All your points are incorrect or at the very least inaccurate. You're only getting your information from anti-Jewish and anti-Israel sources.

The audacity to claim that after citing a literal propaganda rag, endorsing or excusing war crimes, and ignoring all of the death Israel had caused before Oct 7 is really something. Especially since by Israel's own metric, Oct 7 was ok to do since it was done to eventually rescue hostages through trade with a better than 270:6 ratio on deaths to hostages.

EDIT: autocorrect made a "you'll" a "you're" so I fixed it.