r/Invincible • u/mwthecool Omni-Mod • Nov 24 '23

Invincible [Episode Discussion] - S02E04 - It's Been a While EPISODE DISCUSSION

Episode 4 - It's Been a While!

Mark answers the call to save an alien species, but the mission has unexpected personal consequences.

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809

u/Front-Review1388 Nov 24 '23

What a episode. Holy crap. How does a single episode manage to redeem Nolan? It was powerful when he cried for the Thraxan massacre, and him protecting Mark was touching. Mark embracing his Viltrum side by fighting to kill was badass. The animation also looks better here.

10/10 yet again.

281

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '23

The opening scene did a lot of heavy lifting. Excellent song choice, art, and pacing.

I especially loved how he drifted past all of these absolutely beautiful places in space that anyone would be awed by, but he's so depressed that none of it even registers for him. He's just a zombie floating through space waiting to die.

Not to mention all the parallels between the scene with him and the scene with Debbie, which anchored his story in his misdeeds.

I also really appreciate that he's still Nolan. He's still short-tempered and violent. He's just learned to understand his own feelings a little better.

365

u/SoundofGlaciers Nov 24 '23

The episode was insane! Loved it as well. Tho I wouldn't really say 'redeem' yet. People on Earth are still grieving the losses and afraid of his return and he said and did some really evil monster type shit just a few years ago.

Mark definitely surprised himself with how strong he is or can be when he goes for the kill. The whole fight was incredibly well animated. Loved the shot of the viltrimite dude pushing mark into the ground with a single finger.

209

u/OfficerBubbles773 Nov 24 '23

Not to mention some of Viltrumite Ideology was coming back as he's mourning the loss of the Thraxans. His upbringing tells him to be disgusted by such "weak" creatures yet the humanity he gained on Earth is manifesting in him. I'm loving the arc for Nolan!

21

u/FriendsCallMeBatman Nov 24 '23

Absolutely, characters like that are so much more interesting, at times, than the titular character. I knew he'd be back not this soon and not like this!

59

u/ILoveRegenHealth Nov 24 '23

Also, the problems we see now are still Nolan's fault. He can't stop fucking, and now Mark is stranded on a distant planet with a hole in his body. Hardly the results we would see from an innocent and redeemed man. Nolan is still selfish knowing the consequences of mating with other species.

14

u/IWouldButImLazy GDA Troopers Nov 24 '23

He's packing some potent nut though ngl

8

u/sonicmerlin Nov 24 '23

How did the Viltrumites even discover where Nolan was?

9

u/Jamaz Nov 25 '23

My guess is that the leader of the Coalition of Planets leaked info on Mark and gave them a lead since it's the same trio that gutted Allen.

1

u/Petersaber Nov 26 '23

That's how they knew he wasn't on Earth, but how did they know which planet he went to?

2

u/Jamaz Nov 26 '23

I didn't read the comic so I don't know for a fact, but I figure they knew where Earth was but had no idea where Nolan went. Then they got the tip that Nolan had a son named Mark with visual identification and started monitoring him and followed him when he left the planet. This would make the most sense to me since they attacked IMMEDIATELY after Mark lands.

5

u/biomannnn007 Nov 24 '23

Nah, the only thing I blame Nolan for there is that he is still technically married to Debbie (even if that marriage is basically dead at this point anyway.)

The blame for a massacre always lies on the people who are doing the killing. That the viltrumites happened to use the child an excuse for what they did doesn’t change that they’re ultimately the ones that ended up destroying the planet (that they would likely have destroyed at some point anyway.)

7

u/IcebergLickingGuy Nov 24 '23

He can't exactly fly back to Earth to sign some divorce papers. Especially since he's registered as dead.

3

u/Mampt Nov 28 '23

That's true ultimately, but the fact that he knew in advance that they were going to come for him shows that he always knew what would happen. It was pure selfishness to knowingly put another planet in that position. He didn't execute the Thraxans, but he willingly signed the death warrant out of a desire for power and glory. Then he lied to his son to get him to come bail him out, gaslit and manipulated him into staying, and nearly got him killed in their first interaction since he nearly killed Mark and did brutally kill thousands on Earth. Everything he did for the Thraxans was entirely out of selfishness. It's almost like the opposite of Spider-Man's "with great power comes great responsibility", he knew the results of his actions, took those actions anyway, and then tried to blame Mark for not wanting to get involved. He did a lot of terrible things in this episode

1

u/Pizzacato567 Jan 19 '24

I agree. I like Nolan as a character - but not as a person. The only time he reached out to Mark was to ask him to help protect his new kid that he probably shouldn’t have had in the first place because Viltrum will try kill the kid.

He was aggravating and I was kinda shocked he went and got someone else pregnant. I felt so so sorry for Mark. Especially after that “I can just have another son. What’s 17 more years?” line he told Mark last time they saw each other. That and the making out right in front of him.

I know feelings are new to Nolan but damn he’s frustrating.

26

u/bugzillian Nov 24 '23

I believe it's still only 6 months ago instead of yearsc

2

u/struugi Nov 24 '23

Come to think of it, maybe it was a few years for Nolan given he was chilling next to a black hole.

8

u/Acrookedernose Nov 24 '23

Unfortunately it's the other way around, less time would pass for Nolan than for earth.

1

u/bugzillian Nov 25 '23

Tbh I'm sure either way it wouldn't matter to him with his lifespan his perception of time is probably already all fucked

9

u/LMkingly Nov 24 '23

evil monster type shit just a few years ago.

You mean just a few months ago. Pretty sure it's only been like 6 months since his rampage.

8

u/[deleted] Nov 25 '23

I mean he’s still a huge piece of shit, he went to that planet and had a kid knowing the viltrumites would be coming for him, then tricked invincible into coming and manipulated him into saving the people he intentionally put in danger

1

u/andergriff Allen the Alien Nov 27 '23

redeeming yourself doesn't mean making up for the wrongs you committed. it just means realizing the wrong you did and becoming a better person. There is never be a way for him to make up for the death he caused

2

u/SoundofGlaciers Nov 27 '23

Oh I see, I looked up the definition and you're right.

And yeah I doubt anyone who lost someone due to his massacre would ever feel positively about Omni-Man, however much he believes to have 'redeemed' himself.

Storywise I think it's a very interesting direction to go this quickly. I don't think I've seen any other show in which such a big bad guy gets the 180 treatment this quickly.

I wonder if they'll continue to make Omni-Man align with Mark/the viewers and if we'd truly think of him as being 'on our side' at some point during the future, or if he'll always remain like a Hitler type character who just happens to be on our side now because we're all fighting even worse aliens (viltrumite invasion).

Like last episode I felt like Omni-Man pressured and put Mark into an impossible position where Mark didn't even have time to process or make a decision before literally having to fight for his life and being forced into fighting for/with Omniman, protecting his brother and the all the ant creatures. And it seems he still doesn't want to see his dad get beat into pulp or executed by viltrumites so being Mark he has to side with his father.. so much emotional pull and manipulation, I just love the direction it's going and how mindfucking it is.

3

u/Mampt Nov 28 '23

This was definitely not a 180 on Nolan, if anything he looks even worse than he did before. He knew all of this would happen but still stayed on Thraxan because he wanted the glory and power and praise they heaped on him, and then he manipulatively got Mark involved in their first and only interaction since he nearly murdered him and left him for dead on the side of a mountain. His worry about the Thraxans was for his own sake because he was being hunted, he just acted like he wanted to save them because it would get Mark to help and he basically said as much. He acted like he cared about Earth and humans for 20 years when their lives meant nothing to him, and we're supposed to believe that that changed in under a year and he's suddenly an altruist? Nah, Nolan is at least as big of a dirt bag as he was before

155

u/Iorith Nov 24 '23

I don't see him as redeemed, but absolutely on his way.

His inability to admit what he did was wrong, his lashing out at Mark for his own emotional disruption, shows he isn't redeemed. He's still figuring out what the hell he is and wants to be vs what he's always been.

26

u/torvaman Nov 24 '23

I agree with this. I do not think Nolan is simply in the clear given he slaughtered thousands of humans, abandoned his post, and is now hailing mark to save a society he's put in jeopardy.

Nolan may be remorseful for his actions, but he also is asking for Mark's help to save his OWN ass. He did not need to stick around with the Thraxans and make a baby, he painted a LARGE target on that planet by staying there and having a child for...what reason?

17

u/finnjakefionnacake Nov 24 '23

i think the scale of what he has done means that the only real redemption here would be in sacrifice/dying to do the right thing. any less than that is like saying hitler is redeemable. yes i invoked godwin's law but pretty sure it works in this situation lol.

40

u/Lucifer_Crowe Nov 24 '23

Hitler wasn't brainwashed growing up as far as I'm aware

Nolan is literally fighting his programming

18

u/Iorith Nov 24 '23

Exactly this. He needs to be able to recognize that the Viltrum mindset was wrong on it's own merits, and fight against it because it's wrong, not out of his own benefit. So far, he's resisted due to his loved ones and people he feels responsible for.

It's a good step, but not enough for me to say it's redemption.

29

u/Lucifer_Crowe Nov 24 '23

I think in some way Nolan also got sucked in by sunk cost

He seemed annoyed that it was time to take down the Guardians and almost seemed content with Mark not having powers

But obviously once he'd done it he couldn't back down or then he'd killed his "friends" for nothing.

I think he's a really interesting character, and especially fun because he doesn't hold back when it counts.

I think he's going to realise that he wants to be Omni-Man. Protecting the innocent.

In some sense Mark inspires him, but he also needs Mark to learn to be the best of himself and his Viltrumite strength

12

u/Iorith Nov 24 '23

This is where I hope it's going as well. He decides he wants to be a hero, just like his son.

14

u/Megapiefan Nov 24 '23

ooh if they do a mirror of the first episode where mark says “i want to be just like you” to omniman that would be a great moment

3

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '23

[deleted]

1

u/Lucifer_Crowe Nov 27 '23

I mean it's already started

His 'programming' tells him it's wrong but he wants to be more like Mark (just without the holding back)

13

u/finnjakefionnacake Nov 24 '23

yes but i think we're beyond that. too many innocent people had to die for him to be de-programmed. this is still the journey he's on, sure, but i don't know if "redemption" is the right word.

17

u/Lucifer_Crowe Nov 24 '23

If he's able to become someone that can use his gifts for good I'm down

He can never undo what he's done but he can prevent further harm

3

u/finnjakefionnacake Nov 24 '23

and what is debbie supposed to say to that? or the families and loves ones of the thousands of people he killed?

12

u/PeaWordly4381 Nov 24 '23

Victims of the crimes and their families don't matter to Redditors. You must be new here.

5

u/finnjakefionnacake Nov 25 '23

i'm learning that, lol. this is like silco all over again. complicated but evil man does terrible things but because he has a soft spot for his child all is forgiven lol

5

u/Big_Daymo Nov 29 '23

Vader is probably the most egregious example. He oppresses the galaxy for 20 years but people act like he returned to being good old Anakin for his last moments after killing Palpatine. No, Vader/Anakin was a horrible person. But don't tell that to PrequelMemes.

3

u/PeaWordly4381 Nov 25 '23

I think you have Silco confused with some other character. He was never forgiven or redeemed.

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2

u/UpstairsSnow7 Nov 30 '23

Truth. At least this is a post about a fictional TV show because it's repulsive seeing it in posts about actual people and events. But the same mentality carries over when they start blithely talking about "collateral damage," it's fucking gross.

13

u/Lucifer_Crowe Nov 24 '23

Doesn't necessarily have to be on Earth

And it doesn't mean he deserves forgiveness

2

u/Doublehfoo Dec 04 '23

This is what I’m saying lmao. How can Nolan be redeemed? Did people watch what he did last season? Just the train sequence alone was unforgivably evil and heinous.

1

u/Mana_Croissant Nov 24 '23

I am sure they won’t be able to say anything if rest of the Viltrumites come and kill them because they don’t accept Nolan’s help

1

u/finnjakefionnacake Nov 25 '23

i mean i have no idea what is actually gonna happen so i don't know if this is spoiler. i have no idea if nolan plans on helping earth right now.

1

u/AkhilArtha Dec 05 '23

He doesn't need to be a hero on earth though.

1

u/Doublehfoo Dec 04 '23

How can you possibly believe that after the atrocities he’s committed? The train sequence alone was some despicably evil shit. Not to mention beating your own son within an inch of his life.

1

u/Lucifer_Crowe Dec 04 '23

"he can never undo what he's done."

If someone as strong as Nolan came along and started fighting for justice I would not be the one standing in his way

1

u/Doublehfoo Dec 04 '23

Neither would I, but that doesn’t make him redeemed

1

u/bigC_94 Donald Ferguson Nov 29 '23

Hitler wasn't brainwashed specifically, but the social & economic conditions in Germany post WW1 pretty much ensured that some form of a "Hitler" was going to come to power there regardless. Germany lost a portion of their land which was significant to their economic production in the Treaty of Versailles as well as having to pay the equivalent today of 33 Billion in reparations. This combined with the effects of the Great Depression a decade later caused Germany's economy to tank and many people blamed their loss in the War on the left-wing and Jewish leaders. It was similar to the current social climate of the US today except much more inflated. This gave rise to several right wing, conservative parties and Hitler took advantage of the moment. He was definitely a particular evil, but he was also a product of the socioeconomic & political environment post WW1

2

u/RollTideYall47 Nov 27 '23

But the fact he is struggling is significant

21

u/finnjakefionnacake Nov 24 '23 edited Nov 24 '23

redeem? you and i have different meanings of the word redeem lol

my man left debbie after calling her a pet, went to another planet, started fucking and had another kid like pronto. he was a hair away from murdering his son. i think we might be a little far off from "redemption," which is nothing to say of all the many, many innocent people killed lol.

12

u/RafiakaMacakaDirk Nov 25 '23

bro was also pretty much gaslighting mark like 70% of the time this episode lmao

8

u/finnjakefionnacake Nov 25 '23

he was, and apparently it worked on half the viewers too lol.

4

u/IsopodPuzzleheaded58 Nov 26 '23

i’m astonished at how few comments there are regarding the complete switch up on omni-man’s character.

His return was something i’ve been waiting for for more than two years now, and i’m absolutely surprised at how they handled it. I truly can’t wait to see what they have planned for him, i feel like we’re definitely being toyed with.

1

u/Pizzacato567 Jan 19 '24

Like Omni Man is an interesting character but as a person, he’s so frustrating. I thought I’d like him more now that he’s reflected a lot - but I think I like him less now lol. He’s still a good character tho.

3

u/UpstairsSnow7 Nov 30 '23

For real. People are completely glossing over how selfish it was for Nolan to decide to have another kid knowing how big of a target it would paint. It's like having a small kid around erases everything else

1

u/Pizzacato567 Jan 19 '24

THANK YOU! And then lie to his other kid and endanger him AGAIN trying to protect his new kid.

2

u/G_O_O_G_A_S Nov 26 '23

I definitely wouldn’t say he’s redeemed. I don’t know if he ever could be, especially not on earth, but even with how awful he’s still acting to Mark I think the episode at least does well to make him sympathetic.

He’s spent hundreds or thousands of years, I don’t remember how old he is, being taught to be disgusted by anything but strength and stoicism. I think he is trying to be better, but doesn’t understand that’s what he wants or how to do it.

2

u/Chataboutgames Nov 27 '23

JK Simmons is just too fucking charismatic

3

u/Chataboutgames Nov 27 '23

For his next great act of Redemption he’s going to doom TWO planets then tell Debbie it’s her responsibility to fix it

6

u/Status_Implement_757 Nov 24 '23

Honestly just because he's sorry I don't think he's redeemed. He's still a massive piece of shit, especially when he grabbed marks neck when he was crying how his new family died.

Not really long after he used his own son as a weapon to kill a whole train load of people

9

u/Cautious-Affect7907 Nov 24 '23

There’s still bits of bad animation here and there and a bit of choppiness, but for then most part it’s solid.

1

u/jelde Nov 27 '23

I thought they'd up the animation quality this season seeing how well received it is but nope. They're sticking to 10fps.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '23

[deleted]

1

u/jelde Nov 28 '23

Yes! Any time his face changes angle he gets a different nose. The lack of quality in the animation almost kills the show for me. Even worse now that I'm watching Blue Eye Samurai on Netflix waiting for the second half of the season... I wish Invincible even had a quarter of the animation quality that it has.

7

u/LetsGetXplicit Nov 24 '23

I don't think he's redeemed from all the innocents he has massacred (can anyone be?), but he feels more like a rounded character than a one-dimensional villain at this point.

We're seeing the empathy and conflicted feelings underneath all the Viltrumite indoctrination, which makes him much more interesting.

3

u/reaperfan Nov 24 '23

How does a single episode manage to redeem Nolan?

He's not redeemed yet, but he's definitely on the way. This episode did a great job showing how his experience on Earth has started to crack his "mental coding" but that's not the same as having actually made up for the things he's done in the past. He's still got a long ways to go before he makes things truly right with Mark, Debbie, and the people of Earth as a whole. This episode just showed us that he's capable of going down that path, not that he's reached the end of it yet.

3

u/Petersaber Nov 26 '23

redeem Nolan

it doesn't

2

u/karateema Abraham Lincoln Nov 24 '23

I buy his redemption because Viltrum is like a big terrible abusive family where kids get whipped by every relative all the time, so it took a lot for him to understand he was in the wrong

2

u/Mistermistermistermb Nov 25 '23

redeem Nolan?

I'm curious to see where his arc takes him

But that cnt better not ever get redemption

2

u/Chataboutgames Nov 27 '23

Lol redeem!? He fucked off to bring death and destruction to another planet and then tried to put that responsibility on Mark.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 17 '23

He's not redeemed. I'm struggling to see how he could be. Heck this very episode reveals some irredeemably fucked decision making out of Nolan, but alot of this series is about navigating moral complexity.

2

u/xRyozuo Jan 10 '24

How does a single episode manage to redeem Nolan?

idk but im really curious how this redeems him in your eyes. all i see rn is a narcissistic super human mid life crisis.

Dont get me wrong, i love nolan as a character, but redeemed? lmao

1

u/Precedens Jan 13 '24

I like the moment when he had existential realisation after Mark told him he should feel the empathy on earth that he felt for Traxans.

1

u/skyydog1 Jan 04 '24

it didn’t redeem Nolan. He was an asshole the whole time and manipulated Mark using his kid and the fact that Mark is a good person to help him. I don’t think we ever even saw the man apologize for what he did.

0

u/Dukedoctor Dec 04 '23

I agree it was 10/10.

I personally don’t think that immortal super space Hitler can ever really be redeemed, he’s probably killed millions of innocents (or even more) including children over time with his bare hands. He can never be redeemed in my opinion.

1

u/gumption_11 Jan 20 '24

Just finished the episode. "Redeem" is a bit strong. I find it so hard to imagine him gaining empathy for Thraxa, which he spent less than a year on, compared to his 20 odd years on Earth as remotely tenable. I like the fact that he's been humbled at least & hope that this is the beginning of his just deserts.