r/Invincible • u/mwthecool Omni-Mod • Nov 17 '23

Invincible [Episode Discussion] - S02E03 - This Missive, This Machination! EPISODE DISCUSSION

Episode 3 - This Missive, This Machination!

Mark starts his college career, Debbie struggles with personal trauma, and Allen the Alien returns home to find a new threat facing the Coalition of Planets.

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u/Exatal123 Nov 17 '23

I feel super bad for Debbie man she deserves the best. Also idk if this is an unpopular opinion but after this episode I sorta like Amber a bit more.

The way this episode ended though shocked me.

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u/Carefreekid101 Nov 17 '23

Well, the funny thing is Amber, from what I can recall, wasn't really that bad until that one episode. What I mostly remember is Mark making promises but not being able to keep them.

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u/MindStatic64 Mark Grayson Nov 17 '23

She was totally fine in season one, take out one bad line and she's a perfectly fine character. Even with the line she's sorta okay, you can kind of handwave it, she's pretty justified in being pissed off for the most part.

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u/BardtheGM Nov 17 '23

More like one bad episode. Her being annoyed at him being late and not keeping promises was fine provided she didn't know he was a superhero. But then we get an entire episode where a robot is attacking people and Mark immediately engages as Invincible. She gives him shit for being a coward who abandoned her and it's revealed she knew that he was invincible.

That's what really pissed people off about her. She was torturing the guy knowing full well that he must have been stressed trying to juggle his personal life with his responsibilities to monsters and robots from murdering people. She never even asks if he is okay or expresses any concern for his wellbeing. It's just all about her.

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u/pizza2004 Nov 17 '23

I don’t think she necessarily knew he was Invincible she had just figured out he was a superhero by that point, because of hints, and doesn’t make it clear either how long she knew. That however is more of an example of bad writing really because even if it might be realistic for someone to do that it needs to be communicated to the audience in such a way where we can see why she would do it and clearly it wasn’t.

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u/Generic_user_person Nov 17 '23

and doesn’t make it clear either how long she knew.

She herself directly says she has known for weeks.

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u/pizza2004 Nov 17 '23

I am aware of this, and it is in fact a much more vague answer than is particularly useful in this sense, and could mean that she was still herself mostly unaware for half of the things people were upset with her for “responding this way when she already knew”. Which was my point.

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u/Generic_user_person Nov 17 '23 edited Nov 17 '23

I think nearly all of her behavior E1-5 is fine, EXCEPT for still being mad at mark after he bailed on the Soup Kitchen and wound up in the hospital. Not based on her knowledge, but her lack of empathy at the situation he finds himself in. Like obv shes right to be upset before, since he no called no showed, but once she finds out hes in the hospital, she shouldnt hold it against him.

However E6 is the main problem this sub (rightfully IMO) sites, because theres no doubt she knew during that episode, since it takes place immediately before her own admission, and on a re-watch, knowing that she knows, makes her behavior during that episode incredibly toxic and unjustified

That is the (again correct IMO) issue the community has. There were a hundred other ways to have her react to mark's identity where Amber was still likeable. Because by all accounts, she was up until that point, a girl with a shit boyfriend. She could have simply said something along the lines of "now it all makes sense, but i still need some space" ... Boom, perfectly fine character.

But less than 48 hrs before she is accusing mark of abandoning her, when she herself knows he didnt do that. Thats gaslighting. And then she silent treatments him the rest of the episode, over an issue she gaslit him about, and an she herself knows is not true.

And i think if that behavior had been called out when Mark and her got back together, this sub wouldnt be as upset. But its her toxic behavior, and combination with the show not acknowledging she is wrong for it that upset alot of ppl (myself included)

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u/BardtheGM Nov 18 '23

But less than 48 hrs before she is accusing mark of abandoning her, when she herself knows he didnt do that. Thats gaslighting. And then she silent treatments him the rest of the episode, over an issue she gaslit him about, and an she herself knows is not true.

Yeah the dude was literally fighting a robot and getting the shit kicked out of him. Zero concern was shown over his physical well-being, like "hey are you okay? Are you injured?". Even if I'm fighting or fallen out with a loved one, the moment I see they might be injured that gets dropped and I check they're okay but Amber chose to gaslight him and make him feel bad.

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u/CategoryKiwi Nov 21 '23

I don’t think she necessarily knew he was Invincible she had just figured out he was a superhero by that point

Even mediocre writing would have acknowledged this. Either shown us beforehand that she knew but didn’t know which, or by having her actually acknowledge this after the fact. Particularly to include apologizing (or at the very least realizing) for thinking Mark abandoned her when Invincible was right there fighting the cyborg.

Without that it can hardly be dismissed as just “oh this is how they meant it but the writing was bad”. There is zero reason to believe they meant it that way. That would be like if it turned out Immortal is actually a bear in a skinsuit and nobody reacts to finding out because “they already knew”. We’d be like what the fuck???

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u/-Rapier Allen the Alien Nov 19 '23

I just assumed she was lying because she didn't want to give up on her high ground during their discussion, because she didn't want to recognize a valid reason to excuse him from the abandonment she felt all this time, then followed up by a completely reasonable argument by asking why he didn't tell her on the first place.

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u/Lucifer_Crowe Nov 17 '23

She contradicts herself by saying she knew

When before she'd been pissed at Mark for "abandoning his friends" when he'd been right there as Invincible (and even almost slept with someone else over it) it felt like they wrote in her knowing after everything else and didn't go back to actually drop hints.

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u/FoxerHR Nov 17 '23

You can't handwave it at all, she literally says "make the world you want to live in" and Mark does that by saving people. The reason for all that hate for her is because whoever wrote the campus scenes in the first season decided to leave their brain at home.

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u/Sahm_1982 Nov 21 '23

I mean, no? She was a bloody crazy person in season 1.

Much better now, but the character damage is done

1

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23

It's been a while since I've watched s1. Can someone remind me of why Amber was so hated? What line are people referring to?

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u/MindStatic64 Mark Grayson Nov 20 '23

She was mad at Mark for "leaving" her and running away when they were attacked as they were touring the college, when in reality Mark just changed into his Invincible costume. Amber later reveals she knew Mark was Invincible the whole time, which makes no sense considering how she reacted. There are more reasons people don't like her (mostly really bad ones) but that's the main reason she gets hate.

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u/Nobody5464 Mar 15 '24

That reason is also dumb because literally anyone with intelligence would figure out she wasn’t actually mad about him leaving and was in fact mad he was lying but instead they just assume she’s and idiot.

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u/Mindless_Bad_1591 Shapesmith Apr 17 '24

She insisted he was a coward for abandoning his friends when she knew he was a superhero. That isn't about the lying she was being delusional. Just shit writing. I chalk it up to miscommunication between writers and directors between both episodes.

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u/Nobody5464 Apr 17 '24

Dude are you really this dumb. She was trying to force him to admit it to her. She was yelling at him like that so he’d admit to the truth to try and save his image. The fact he still doesn’t tell her even when she went that far is what convinces her they should break up. 

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u/Mindless_Bad_1591 Shapesmith Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

Dude are you really this dumb

Lol, ad hominem much. Also, you know that like 99% of the fanbase is on my side of this topic, so maybe you are the one being delusional. Open with something better next time.

She was yelling at him like that so he’d admit to the truth to try and save his image.

In front of everybody??? To make him look like a loser when she could have done this in private??? He can't just tell every fucking person on campus. He literally says he was going for help. He saved whatever image he had as best he could without revealing his identity to the entire campus.

The fact he still doesn’t tell her even when she went that far is what convinces her they should break up. 

This just makes her a shitty person. If she knew Mark was a superhero, and you just want trust and communication, initiate the confrontation instead of being immature about it. You should know that he is already mentally struggling to juggle the balance of a superhero life and normal life.

Mark was a shitty boyfriend, I am not denying that. But at this point, if she actually did know of his identity, and she wasn't lying because she was just mad, then her reaction makes zero fucking sense. She is basically mentally tormenting the guy for not giving up his superhero identity after a couple months of dating while full-knowing the position the guy is in. Confront him about the matter maturely, don't just blast the guy in front of everyone for being a coward and abandoning her and your friends. That one line just made her character narcissistic and selfish. There was not enough dialogue between the two in season 1 to make her a sympathetic character during their "break up".

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u/Nobody5464 Apr 17 '24

I’m not saying she was behaving totally healthily but it was a dumb teenage relationship mistake people make all the time. Instead of just telling him she knew she wanted him to tell her to prove he trusted her and when he kept not telling her it made her angrier and angrier

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u/Mindless_Bad_1591 Shapesmith Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

Instead of just telling him she knew she wanted him to tell her to prove he trusted her and when he kept not telling her it made her angrier and angrier

I get this. I understand this motivation. However, like I said in my other reply, there just wasn't enough dialogue given to give us a clear perspective of where she was coming from. These deductions are made on assumptions, where they should have fleshed out her feelings more in season 1 to give us more of an understanding. The product we received gives us very contradictory perspectives and feelings of the character, leaving the audience to fill in the gaps when this is one of those times you should not be doing that.

Also your point of it being a dumb high school drama relationship is valid, but that doesn't make it any less frustrating to watch.

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u/Nobody5464 Apr 18 '24

I mean it literally takes one step of emotional consideration to reach this fact. As long as you stop to think for even 1 second you should come to this conclusion. Having characters always say everything their feeling doesn’t work you have to make it natural. Amber is incredibly pissed in their breakup scene she’s not gonna randomly say “oh by the way I was yelling at you to convince you to tell me the truth” in the middle of their breakup fight. You should be able to figure that out they shouldn’t need to hand hold you through every emotional beat.

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