r/politics • u/bustersnuggs5011 Pueblo • 4d ago

Biden’s Family Tells Him to Keep Fighting as They Huddle at Camp David Soft Paywall

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/30/us/politics/biden-debate-anxious-democrats.html
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u/bohiti 4d ago

Two things can be true:
1. Biden was the right person in 2020. He’s had an enormously successful presidency. He is a good man who has served his country for a long time. 2. Biden may be incapable of winning in 2024. Simply the optics of the debate may have sealed that.

I think we can all agree we need to do everything we can to keep Trump’s Project 2025 from being fulfilled. There is no instruction manual on the obvious right thing to do. Whatever happens in November, some side of this will be able to say “I told you so”.

But given how close it was last time when Biden looked dominant in the polls, compared to how bad it looks this time… And age is something that tends to not improve with time.

All signs suggest we’re heading towards a trainwreck after which we will not be able to say “we did everything we could”.

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u/northern-new-jersey 4d ago

Btw, it isn't Trump's Project 2025. It is the Heritage Foundation's proposal. I seriously doubt Trump has ever read it. 

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u/Stillwater215 4d ago

There’s no chance he read it. But he will put the people who the Heritage Foundation tells him to into his cabinet and they will work to implement it. Trump is very much just a “useful idiot” for them.

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u/northern-new-jersey 4d ago

Yeah, right. The other people are really in charge doesn't seem to fit with Trump's personality. 

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u/y0y 4d ago

Influence doesn’t have to work that way. You think people don’t know how to manipulate him?

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u/northern-new-jersey 3d ago

Do you have a source where this has been argued? Everyone is influenced by others but the extent to which this can happen greatly varies. 

People who are frantic about Project 2025 seem to believe Trump is running on it as his platform. This isn't true. Has he even referred to it?

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u/y0y 3d ago

A source for how easy it is to manipulate a textbook narcissist? Roger Stone is one example who recognized you just have to pander to their ego.

I am not claiming to have knowledge of the inner-workings of the ultra right wing movement to enact policies that feel an awful lot like leading us toward full-on authoritarianism, but it is obvious to me that if Trump is surrounded by those sorts (and he most definitely is, given that the authors of project 2025 were in his circle originally!) then it wouldn’t require him to understand or be behind the full plan for them to convince him to implement it anyway, piece by ego-stroking piece.

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u/tjscobbie 4d ago

There are innumerable quotes out there from Trump's own circle (cabinet, advisors) that are literally about how easy it is to manipulating him into doing/believing what they want.

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u/northern-new-jersey 3d ago

I've never seen that. Do you have a source?

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u/tjscobbie 3d ago

“I have a 40-year record of being able to convince the big man to do what’s in his best interest. He’s not easy to deal with. It’s complicated,” Stone said. “He resents any implication that he is handled or managed or directed.”

Stone then details a hypothetical situation where he—serving as an adviser—might be able to plant an idea inside Trump’s head.

“You have to say, ‘Remember that night when we were in Buffalo. And you gave that speech, and God, it had to be 10,000 people, the biggest crowd they’d ever seen. And you said XYZ, and the place went crazy, remember that? I don’t know where you came up with that line, but it’s one of the best things.’”

Stone then theorized how Trump might respond to the lie.

“Yeah, I’m going to use that one again,” Stone said, playing the part of Trump.

The longtime Trump ally claimed he had used the tactic for decades.

“Doesn’t fucking matter that he never said it—doesn’t matter,” Stone said. “It’s time-consuming, but it works. I did it for 30 years.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/watch-roger-stone-explain-on-hot-mic-how-to-manipulate-trump

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u/bohiti 4d ago

What exactly are you saying?

Are you saying we shouldn’t take Project 2025 seriously, and expect its goals to be pursued if Trump wins?

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u/MasterChiefsasshole 3d ago

How about we don’t beat around the bush and call it the conservative’s anti-american plan. Cause that’s simply what it is.

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u/northern-new-jersey 3d ago

You are entitled to your opinion. Has Trump ever even referred to it? 

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u/deadmemesarefuel 3d ago

The issue is it's too late to change course. Even though the electorate could technically pick someone else at the convention they would not be democratically selected. This would then translate into there being one recognizable name on the ballot in November. That name would be trump. Besides this one issue there are so many more errors that could occur when swapping candidates so late. One major one would be giving more breath to the RFK campaign. Then there's also the possibility of fracturing the dem party even further. What if the convention picks a Dem that's even more traditional than Biden. In that scenario you're losing way too many votes from far left Dems sitting out. Don't get me wrong I wish things were different. I wish the Dems had decided to run a traditional primary and let the electorate choose their candidate. But that didn't happen. At this point Biden is the biggest name with the most experience in beating trump. Faltering now will only ensure defeat and the success of the project 2025 plan. Logically speaking people are overreacting to the debate. It was a really bad night but barring that Biden has been doing very well. The only way that debate will cause bidens defeat is if the Democratic party let's it.

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u/bohiti 3d ago

I agree with most of that. But two points: * At some point name recognition can be bad. If the negative energy about Biden keeps up, seeing his name on the ballot could be bad. There is time to build some name recognition for a new candidate. If we’re being honest, a large swath of Biden voters in 2020 and surely in 2024 are more anti-Trump voters willing to mark the non-Trump candidate. And some (me) would be energized and excited by the option. * The more likely it is that Biden loses, the more it makes sense to make a high variance move. Yes, we could lose by worse but it at least gives us a chance to win. We have to do everything we can. I won’t claim to see through all the polling and know the likely outcome. But I do know we’re in a far worse position than 2020 and that was so close.

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u/deadmemesarefuel 2d ago

Yeah you're right on both those points. It's like no matter which decisions is made there are huge risks either way. This is a shit time line lmao. Its funny but sad, I hope someday I see a candidate on the ballot I truly believe in.

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u/_Atlas_Drugged_ 4d ago

I honestly think it’s far too late to change horses unfortunately. There is no obvious democrat primed to take over. Biden is still our best hope to not have Trump again.

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u/karmahorse1 4d ago

It's not too late. Anyone would be a better shot than Biden. Forgetting Biden is well into his way of senility, the after effects of covid inflation have made him HUGELY unpopular with the general electorate.

Put up anyone other than Biden or Harris against felony Trump, Dems win in November. Stick with them they lose. Really is that simple and the polls back it up.

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u/DrPepperBetter 4d ago

I disagree with this. Buttigieg is articulate, young, has at least some name recognition, and is not a convicted felon. Besides his sexuality, there isn't any other reason why he wouldn't dominate Trump, a convicted felon, serial liar, and traitor. 

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u/bohiti 4d ago

That may well be true. I just hope they are having this conversation at the senior levels of the party instead of just bowing to the ego of a very old man.

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u/hellstarrecords 3d ago

He had a successful presidency? Are you smoking crack dude?

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u/sir_mrej Washington 4d ago

Biden has name recognition with a TON of people who dont follow politics.

No one else can replace him. It'll be a LANDSLIDE for Trump if he's replaced.

Well no that's not true. The only people who can replace him is Hillary or Michelle Obama. People know who the fuck those people are.

I'm not saying we SHOULD run Hillary. I'm saying independents barely know who Newsom is (my choice for 2028).