r/inthenews • u/Advanced_Drink_8536 • May 27 '24

Donald Trump rejected by Libertarians, gets less than 1% of vote article

https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-rejected-libertarians-less-one-percent-vote-presidential-election-1904870
29.3k Upvotes

88% Upvoted

2.1k comments sorted by

View all comments

94

u/WIngDingDin May 27 '24

Should have pointed out he doesn't believe age of consent laws then vowed to abolish drivers licenses and make all taxes voluntary.

that's how you get the libertarian vote. /s

21

u/Trains_N_Fish May 27 '24

libertarians also have regular discourse on the legality of abolition, he shouldve said he would repeal the 13th amendment

14

u/Salt_Proposal_742 May 27 '24

So you’re telling me libertarians are evil.

12

u/Malachorn May 27 '24

Libertarian party may not be a huge percentage of the population, but it is still a "Big Tent Party." A massively big tent.

And most libertarians love to tell you they are a "small L" libertarian and not a "Libertarian" that agrees with the Libertarian Party's party lines.

It's a completely dysfunctional mess, for the most part.

3

u/WIngDingDin May 27 '24

that's because most libertarians don't want the libertarian party telling them what to do! lol

3

u/One-Individual2014 May 27 '24

should be called the irony party

2

u/WeAreElectricity May 27 '24

So self defeating

3

u/wallinbl May 27 '24

Libertarianism is for 15 year olds who think they know everything, but in reality haven't thought very deeply about much of any of it.

Most people grow out of that phase.

1

u/Malachorn May 27 '24 edited May 27 '24

American political views actually align pretty favorably with American libertarianism, whether you like it or not.

The party just is made to want to self-implode and not capitalize on any of that.

These MAGAtarians and when the Tea Party didn't do it many favors inasmuch as they decrease its favorability across the voter base... but they are organized and united and, as such, have gained a much greater power in the Party now than they represent the actual base.

But had the party been more successful at gaining disenfranchised minorities (think Native Americans and Black people that didn't get the COVID vaccine because they don't trust the US government and whatnot) rather than focus on identity politics then it could have potentially become a somewhat legitimate and "real" 3rd Party in America...

At it's core, it should operate as a Big Tent Party and it really is one... but the infrastructure of the party is full of gatekeeping and the type of non-inclusivity that just makes it a completely dysfunctional mess.

And don't get me started on the Mises Caucus and how it hasn't done any favors to libertarians.

3

u/wallinbl May 27 '24

At a generalized level, most major parties have ideas that are broadly accepted and/or appealing. If you broadly define American libertarianism as fiscally conservative and socially liberal, then, sure, at a high level, it's broadly acceptable to most Americans. Where all US parties fail is in a combination of their implementation and their catering to the ideologues and extremists, and I think this is also where Libertarians diverge from the voting population as well*.

Have government do only what is necessary is a good ideal. Taking it to the extreme is a failure. Conservatives/Republicans/Libertarians have ideologues and extremists that want the government to stay out of everything. This is impractical and foolish.

Government should intervene where markets fail is a good ideal. Taking it to the extreme is a failure. Liberals/Democrats have ideologues and extremists that want the government to intervene in every imperfection. This is impractical and foolish.

* To be fair, closed primaries and FPTP voting mathematically guarantees parties retreat towards the extremists, rather than towards the moderates. This is a structural failing of our current voting system.

the infrastructure of the party is full of gatekeeping and the type of non-inclusivity that just makes it a completely dysfunctional mess.

In all parties, the people seeking power want to exert that power, so that's to be expected. People that will undertake the steps necessary to acquire power are almost universally people who are unfit to wield power.

1

u/WIngDingDin May 27 '24

yup! That was me a couple decades ago as an angsty, white, male teen. Then, life hit me in the face, I met lots of other people, and I grew out of it.

38

u/Trains_N_Fish May 27 '24

A lot of “libertarians” (maybe even most of them) don’t actually believe in their “little to no government” ideals. They just don’t like THIS government, but they’d be all for THEIR version of over-encroaching government. You see this with the religious ones like Ron Paul.

15

u/french_snail May 27 '24 edited May 27 '24

Libertarians are closeted republicans, they can boo and grandstand all they want but come November we all know what their ballots will say

Edit: commenting “I’m libertarian and I’m not voting for Trump” doesn’t mean anything. Facts are facts and the fact is libertarians have supported Trump in the last two election cycles, shit more libertarians voted for Trump than their own candidate in 2016

21

u/rex8499 May 27 '24

Mine's gonna say Biden, and historically I've usually voted for the Libertarian or Constitutional party candidates. Defeating Trump is more important than my principles.

7

u/MostBoringStan May 27 '24

Good for you. And that isn't sarcastic.

I fully believe in voting for third party candidates. It matters even when they don't come close. If more people showed they were unhappy with the 2 choices, more things would change.

However, this isn't the election for that. Trump needs to be stopped. So I'm glad at least some people can see that and do their part.

-3

u/skabople May 27 '24

This isn't the election for that and it never has been. It's always the most important election. Lol whatever.

3

u/Avantasian538 May 27 '24

Is it? Or is defeating Trump at all costs consistent with your principles?

2

u/rex8499 May 27 '24

Consistent with some principles, certainly. But contrary to my general voting principles which focus on the candidate I believe is the best, rather than choosing between the two parties that can actually win.

I'm in Idaho, so I have the luxury of that principle not mattering. Idaho will go red by 65%, as usual.

If I lived in a battleground state, maybe I'd have felt differently in the past.

Plus, I've actually been surprised by Biden. He's done better than I expected.

2

u/Lots42 May 28 '24

Thank you. Seriously.

16

u/Wise-Definition-1980 May 27 '24

Libertarian here. I'm not voting R.

5

u/CurrencyAlarming1099 May 27 '24

I'm libertarian, Trump is the exact opposite of what I want. 

I have problems with Democrats too, but I'd take nearly anyone over Trump. 

4

u/DandyLamborgenie May 27 '24

Propaganda take against 3rd parties existing at all if you ask me. I’m libertarian and I’ve never supported a Republican. Literally without media influence, there’s no reason to believe that a party that wants LESS government interference, but is socially conscious would vote for Republicans. Yeah, I get there’s a couple people you can point to that are the closeted republicans, but you really think most people identifying as a libertarian are just playing a huge joke? Because when democrats want to interfere with my life, usually they’re trying to help impoverished people, which is great for the economy if you don’t count the economy as the Forbes 100 list. When republicans try to interfere with my life, it’s by targeting my race, or the autonomy of women I love and respect. Democrats need to stop making enemies out of Libertarians, because if I had to bet, it’s Republicans with the most to gain by pushing rhetoric about Libertarians. I’ve been to the libertarian subreddit. Yeah. They’re closeted republicans. But once again, simply looking at the ideals of the party, and knowing most people aren’t tapped into this very small sample size of internet and media culture you see online and in the news, and ask how many people do you think really fit this stereotype VS how much of it is propaganda.

If you’re really a Libertarian, you definitely agree Trump crossed a definitive line by not peacefully transitioning power, as well as his continued efforts to illegitimate democracy. It’s just that simple. Even if at the end of the day Dems and Libs don’t agree on everything, they can both agree that they rather democratically resolve their issues than repeat Jan 6th. There’s only one party that doesn’t follow that line of thought.

1

u/skabople May 27 '24

Straight up. The "Republican" light folks in the LP are actually a very small minority. It's why this year we got Chase Oliver as president and Mike ter Maat as VP. I don't understand how people look at that ticket and think Republicans or far right.

2

u/DerpSenpai May 27 '24

Libertarians are Socially Liberal, Fiscally Conservative. they split the vote R/D depending on who runs. Trump makes Libertarians vote D because he is an authoritarian wanna be

1

u/_laslo_paniflex_ May 27 '24

jill Stein?

2

u/MimicoSkunkFan May 27 '24

She went to Moscow somewhat recently, probably not a good idea.

-1

u/_laslo_paniflex_ May 27 '24

as bad a funding a genocide like biden?

1

u/ShortestBullsprig May 27 '24

If they are facts post your sources

0

u/iareslice May 27 '24

A lot of em vote third party, which is considerate of them to throw away their votes.

4

u/happyjd May 27 '24

Ron Paul is a constitutionalist and does not partake in the Libertarian Party.

I highly suggest you take a look at their policies and their presidential candidate, Chase Oliver (who is gay and would probably not be loved by the religious right).

3

u/FatKonkin May 27 '24

Ron Paul is an Ancap. The LP isn't the official representative of Libertarian values, espically not Chase Oliver lol Nobody cares if your gay, everyone loved Raimondo, youre falling for a false narrative

-1

u/happyjd May 27 '24

Ron Paul is an Ancap.

Even if he is, Ancap is not the same thing as libertarians. Libertarians believe that the government should exist to protect rights.

The LP isn't the official representative of Libertarian values, espically not Chase Oliver

What? Why is this true? Biden doesn't represent Democrat's values and Trump doesn't represent Republican's values?

Why would you believe that a group of people who got together and funded a party with a certain label wouldn't represent that label? You think they're doing the political process for shits and giggles? Furthermore, they're the only ones with that label. Surely someone would say "hey this party is BS. Let me create a better one. And, since it's libertarian, it'll have strippers and blackjack." (joke but you get my point.)

Nobody cares if your gay,

I'm assuming you're not gay then? Because I doubt a gay person would believe this. Sounds to me like how white people say "we don't see color."

everyone loved Raimondo,

What is your point in bringing her up? I'm not privy much into this person.

falling for a false narrative

How are you so convinced I'm the one falling for a false narrative? What do you know about me? Maybe you've fallen for a false narrative maybe by the two ruling parties. You don't think the democrats and republicans have an incentive to paint a negative picture of libertarians? And as such they're the ones creating a false narrative?

2

u/FatKonkin May 27 '24

The father of the modern libertarian movement coined the term anarcho capitalism, it's absolutely libertarianism

Justin raimondo was a guy that you should know about if you purport to be a Libertarian

1

u/happyjd May 27 '24

Rothbard is just one of many Libertarians. I personally believe that it's easy to follow libertarianism and end up as an anarchist or as anarcho-capitalist. That does not mean anarchy or anarcho-capitalism are libertarian. In a libertarian system, both left and right libertarianism can exist; not necessarily so in an anarcho-capitalist or anarchist world. There are differences between libertarianism and anarchy/anarcho-capitalism and to pretend otherwise is to be reductivist.

Justin raimondo was a guy that you should know about if you purport to be a Libertarian

No. The libertarian world is not as small or clear-cut as you are making it. I have my own libertarian heroes, like Chomsky, who I look up to and I don't need to know the people you care about.

If your point is though, that this gay man worked in both the republican and libertarian fields then yes, he did do that. If your point is "no one cares" about others' sexuality then you're either naive, ignorant or gullible, depending on who sold you this story.

1

u/FatKonkin May 27 '24

I don't know why anyone would be bringing up Chomsky after he's supported the vaccine mandates

Well you were bringing up the libertarian party and rothbard absolutely gets credit for his role there & for the modern movement. It's what inspired Ron Paul to get into politics and how many people did he inspire?

Rothbard liked to call it non-archism, because it's different than your traditional left-wing anarchy. But yes, it absolutely is libertarian. I think that's indisputable

Raymondo was loved by the people that you think dislike gay people within the movement. People just don't like the collectivist LGBT stuff which is more about power than acceptance.

1

u/happyjd May 27 '24

I don't know why anyone would be bringing up Chomsky after he's supported the vaccine mandates

Yes, this was a big L. With that said, he has a lot of other good insights.

Well you were bringing up the libertarian party and rothbard absolutely gets credit for his role there & for the modern movement. It's what inspired Ron Paul to get into politics and how many people did he inspire?

It's true they've inspired a lot and have done a lot of good work. But I think that a lot of their followers are missing the bigger libertarian picture, with some completely negating left libertarians. I don't think it's up to Ron Paul to educate his followers though so I can see why many can equate his anarcho-capitalists views with all of libertarianism.

Rothbard liked to call it non-archism, because it's different than your traditional left-wing anarchy. But yes, it absolutely is libertarian. I think that's indisputable

No, you're confusing what I'm saying. A square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square. Libertarianism is more than anarcho-capitalism.

Raymondo was loved by the people that you think dislike gay people within the movement.

Within what movement? If you're saying within the libertarian or libertarian-esque movement then you're misunderstanding me. Libertarians have no problems with gays; they were the first party to ask for gay marriage legalization (or even just to remove the government from the process).

People just don't like the collectivist LGBT stuff which is more about power than acceptance.

Some people don't like the collectivist LGBT stuff. Some people straight up don't like gay people as individuals. Some people see their individual actions as sin or a mental health issue, both of which should be 'solved.' Let's not be reductive here.

→ More replies (0)

4

u/RADICCHI0 May 27 '24

They're really into police taking away everyone's civil liberties but their own.

3

u/happyjd May 27 '24

Where are you getting your info from??

Libertarians embrace the concept that all people are born with certain inherent rights. ... We uphold and defend the rights of every person, regardless of their race, ethnicity, or any other aspect of their identity.

Additionally, we support the abolition of qualified immunity so that law enforcement and prosecutors would be held legally accountable for misconduct that leads to wrongful convictions or other acts of injustice.

2

u/Lots42 May 27 '24

So you guys don't do back the blue? Good to know.

2

u/stoneimp May 27 '24

Probably from the voting record of prominent libertarians like Rand Paul. Sure he votes libertarian sometimes, but he'll be lockstep with crushing abortion rights like any other Republican. People notice it more when you have hypocritical positions. It would be better for libertarians if there were more politicians to use as lodestones for their perception of libertarians, but the public is too used to Republican charlatans using the veil of libertarianism to push their social conservative agenda.

0

u/RADICCHI0 May 27 '24

This is all news to me, I'd heard that libertarians supported the use of policing to enforce "social order" which is a euphemism for policing by traditional social hierarchy.

3

u/willBCooldad May 27 '24

If you had only “ Heard “ this false information, then why did you stat it as fact in your original reply..

1

u/happyjd May 27 '24

I invite you to learn more about libertarianism and to participate with the party! Furthermore, please do your part to dispel misinformation!

 libertarians supported the use of policing to enforce

All libertarians believe in curtailing the police state we currently have and loosening the laws. I invite you to learn about more extreme libertarian thought. For example, some believe in abolition of the police. Imagine keeping the state, laws and the judicial system (so you would still have a judge and prisons), but have policing done by the community (so the community would bring people and evidence to the judge instead of using this third party like we currently do).

1

u/Philly_ExecChef May 27 '24

I feel like one read through of The Scarlet Letter should solve that little fantasy for you

0

u/happyjd May 27 '24

What is the fantasy it's supposed to solve? Curtailing the police state and loosening the laws? Or abolishing the police?

3

u/Philly_ExecChef May 27 '24

Community policing is a pipe dream. Humans are not “good” intrinsically and what you’re suggesting has historically resulted in lynching.

Edit: I know the response here is going to entail something about police murdering citizens, which is a clear and fair argument, which requires police reform that isn’t paralyzed by police and political corruption.

Those same abusers on the police force will just become abusers in the community system.

2

u/AdmiralMoonshine May 27 '24

The part about communities being fair and effective when it comes to policing themselves. That’s the fantasy.

That and the whole ideal libertarians (and anarchists) hold that somehow if their policies where enacted then communities would all come together and fill in the gaps left by the government. If your ideology involves regular people basically having to take up a second part-time job as a civil servant in order for it to work, you are naive and live in a fantasyland.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Flat_Suggestion7545 May 27 '24

They’ve tried “little to no government” in the towns they took over. It didn’t go well. Read up on Grafton New Hampshire and Von Ormy Texas. Those are the two most famous libertarian experiments.

1

u/Colonic_Mocha May 27 '24

Libertarians are anarchists by another name.

1

u/DO_NOT_AGREE_WITH_U May 27 '24

They just want to take away the pieces of government that benefit the impoverished. They're okay with all the other stuff.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a libertarian who grew up poor.

0

u/cambeiu May 27 '24

What are some of the over encroaching government things defended by Ron Paul?

3

u/Trains_N_Fish May 27 '24

Not sure if I read your comment correctly, but Im assuming you’re asking for an example of his over-encroachment.

Well for starters he wants to rid the constitution of the separation of church and state, which he defended by saying “get rid of the separation, but don’t allow a state religion” which is double speak to his evangelical followers that he wants to allow religiosity into legislation. Thats pretty unconstitutional for a so called “constitutionalist”, and par for the course for most libertarians.

-3

u/cambeiu May 27 '24

I am not sure that is a correct representation of his views.

I know for a fact that he is for the legalization of all drugs, prostitution and for the right of people of same sex to sign civil union contacts and call it whatever they want, including marriage. He was also against banning gays from the military.

One of the things I recall him constantly saying was "morality should not be legislated. It should always be a personal decision, a personal lifestyle choice."

4

u/Trains_N_Fish May 27 '24

Things he said during his 2008 presidential run were often counter to things he professed beforehand.

Another example of his double-speak would be his infamous racist conspiracy driven publications. He doesn’t deny writing them, defends the content, and then says “but racism is bad”.

That may work on the people desperately looking for a 3rd party candidate, but his core audience knows exactly what he means.

0

u/CurrencyAlarming1099 May 27 '24

This is true of everyone though. Very few people have any real principles.

0

u/Warack May 27 '24

Ron Paul never had any positions advocating government overreach. The only religious position I remember him advocating for was wanting abortion to be an issue decided by the states rather than a Supreme Court decision. I’d hardly call that government overreach

8

u/WIngDingDin May 27 '24

eh, I think most of them are just childishly naive.

3

u/Old_Baldi_Locks May 27 '24

I mean, it's literally the party of selfishness. They want all of the benefits of society with none of the rules and none of the taxes.

2

u/MimicoSkunkFan May 27 '24

My neighbour is one of the left-libertarian kind, he's an old draft dodger from Vermont where they abolished slavery in 1787, and he's not evil just weird. He thinks a Libertarian government would be so terrible that it would lead to Anarchy, which is what he wants really.

I think that's why the American Libertarian party doesn't really get anywhere, you've got a whole bunch of individualists pretending to be a single party, like how people who voted for Ross Perot and Ralph Nader are ever going to join together in a single movement?

But I'm from Canada so who knows, we used to have a Rhinocerous Party MP.

2

u/TipsalollyJenkins May 27 '24

No, no, of course not. They just want to make sure that everybody has the option to be evil. If they want to. (Also to cement the rule of corporations over our lives, but for some reason they have trouble admitting that that's the end result of their ideology...)

2

u/RADICCHI0 May 27 '24

I've heard libertarians use their politics as a beard to be racist.

2

u/TrapDaddyReturns May 27 '24

I’ve heard liberals use their politics to create wars in other countries and commit genocide.

1

u/gymbeaux4 May 27 '24

Like when George W Bush’s administration “found” WMDs in Iraq so they could invade Iraq and kill Saddam Hussein

-2

u/RADICCHI0 May 27 '24

Oh yeah? Lol ok

2

u/AdmiralMoonshine May 27 '24

Yeah, some of them probably.

But why do you keep making comments saying “I’ve heard”? Stop just repeating things you’ve heard. You’re already on the internet. Go look it up, and then you can back your comments up with examples and sources.

1

u/RADICCHI0 May 27 '24

I made one comment that said "I've heard"... Why do you keep exaggerating?

1

u/chrismckong May 27 '24

How? Like I’m genuinely curious how do Libertarians use their politics to be racist?

1

u/alexmikli May 27 '24

I don't think it applies to all or even most Libertarians, but there does exist a subgroup that is really, really big on freedom of association, which is their cover for segregation. Likewise, the Mises caucaus and Hoppeans can get weird with this too.

1

u/chrismckong May 27 '24

Freedom of association was a big part of the civil rights movement and allowed individuals to advocate for social justice… how is that a cover for segregation?

1

u/Semanticss May 27 '24

They believe that slavery is wrong, but that it should be addressed by "Natural Law" rather than the government. Basically it's a religious belief that something like karma will resolve all conflicts.

1

u/GaeasSon May 27 '24

You appear to have been lied to. We believe that the whole purpose of government is to preserve and defend the rights of the individual. Slavery is literal anathema to liberty. If you want to smoke pot naked in your garden, we don't care. If you want to own a rifle, we don't care until you threated someone. If you want to worship pasta, more power to you. If you want to deprive someone else of life, liberty, or property, we want the government to fall on you like the hammer of whatever god you like, who happens to own a hammer.

1

u/Semanticss May 27 '24

I'm just going off what my few libertarian friends have told me (many, many times).

1

u/GaeasSon May 27 '24

I've been an active Libertarian for 40 years. I've never heard such a thing from anyone claiming to be a libertarian. Yes, we prefer natural law solutions where there is no force being employed. Markets can sort out questions like which businesses should thrive, or which technologies should be promoted. A Libertarian soft on slavery is a bit like a Christian soft on Satan.

1

u/ShredGuru May 27 '24

More like a different brand of insane. We've got a few in the states.

1

u/alexmikli May 27 '24 edited May 27 '24

It's complicated. Most of the time when you see a wild take like they, it's because they have an alternative that they think would work. Same thing when you talk to a Socialist, and they say they want to abolish progressive taxation, and it's because they don't think rich people should exist to tax.

Honestly, that's my problem with libertarians. Most of the time I'd say their heart is in the right place, it's just that they always push their ideal system, rather than suggesting reforms that get them there. You can't abolish all welfare without establishing a culture of charity, despite a lot of Libertarians genuinely being big fans of charity. FWIW, I still don't think their system would work, but they do and if they want it, they need to get there slowly, not all at once.

0

u/happyjd May 27 '24

This person is just straight up spewing misinformation. Check out their policies; self-ownership is big. They don't even believe that the government can execute you. It's nothing like what this person is saying.

https://www.lp.org/platform/

0

u/[deleted] May 27 '24

[deleted]

1

u/Lots42 May 27 '24

I wouldn't so horribly wicked, more that this political position is severely, severely misguided.

2

u/Philly_ExecChef May 27 '24

I would really, really enjoy watching Newsmax spin how much black Americans love Donald Trump for bringing back slavery

1

u/gizamo May 27 '24

Sounds like a solid Onion headline.

1

u/solarsalmon777 May 27 '24

A yes LIBERtarians, the slavery guys.