r/TheHandmaidsTale • u/Objective-Ad9800 • Oct 14 '22
Nick Question
Why do so many people think Nick deserves better/ he’s a good person?
Nick contributed to the making of Gilead and it’s culture. He saw no major issue with the violence and rape until a handmaid killed herself.
When he was approached about joining the group. He was told they were trying to clean up the country and he might get a job then invited to a meeting. You can’t be brainwashed in one meeting. He went, and resonated with their sentiment enough to keep going. Eventually, being given the eye job.
He doesn’t deserve anything. I’m glad he’s trying to be better now and is helping the women. But no amount of atonement can negate what’s happened. Plus, i don’t think he ever would’ve helped if he didn’t love June. That speaks volume to his character. Falling for someone should not have been the thing to snap him out of it.
All he can do now is be better for the future , but at his core he will always be a bad person for this. It’s too big of an offence
Edit: because I feel like I’m repeating myself a bunch and I know It must be annoying to see me reply the variation of the same thing a million times. But I do not see how him having a hard life excuses him joining an extremist group. A group he joined as a MAN (this is important because patriarchy) that viewed women as less than. Him being young doesn’t excuse it either. Neither does needing a job.
As many have pointed out, they think it was less ajout him believing than being desperate for a job. I can see that. But to me, that also doesn’t excuse anything. It still makes him a bad person. If that’s the case, he cared so little about morals that he joined anyways. That’s just as bad, to me anyways.
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u/pienoceros Oct 14 '22
I'm not a Nick fan, but I don't think the took an active role in his own life until June became pregnant with Nicole. He seemed to drift along the path of least resistance until he woke up and realized where he was. His complacency opened doors for him and he has more opportunities to bring down Gilead from within. If he had run to Canada he'd be, at best, just another refugee or, at worst, a war criminal.
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u/Yunie333 Oct 14 '22
I agree except for he had already started to work against bad people within Gilead even before June got to the Waterfords as we see in S 108. He joined the plain clothes corps of the Eyes (= spies of Commanders) after Offred 1 killed herself and made sure that Commander Guthrie (architect of the handmaid system) was arrested.
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u/nemesiswithatophat Oct 15 '22
This is true, but honestly it feels like the THT writers kind of just forgot Nick is an Eye. Like he is an Eye in season 1 like implied in the book, and then after that the writers started playing some sort of "well.... is Nick actually a good guy? keep watching to find out"
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u/Yunie333 Oct 15 '22
Exactly, ever since he got this forced Commander promotion they don't do anything with his character except push for ambiguity...And it's truly getting old by now.
At least they kinda touched the subject of the Eyes here and there (e.g. when Fred was arrested by him & the Eyes in 410)
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 14 '22
Thank you for this!! You made me not have to type it again tonight 😂❤
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u/dinosaurscantyoyo Oct 14 '22
I think I like the idea that people can grow out of extremist mindsets with age, and that people can change.
I'm neutral at best on Nick. I do like that he is a complicated character and it makes me curious how he's handled in the book.
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 14 '22
And in the book Nick is revealed as a spy of Mayday. He is working with them for a long time. And this part is heavily hinted at again and again in the show. He even went to Mayday to ask for help to get June out in the show, it was only just hinted at. He is the one that gets pregnant June out in the first book. In the second book, he is mentioned as being so deep in the resistance he needs a breathing tube. Nowhere is it said that he ever was actually believing in anything Gilead said.
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 14 '22
The thing is that he was actually never in an extremist mindset. But they only give us breadcrumbs on his backstory and then it is only fleshed out a little by interviews. That's why a lot of it is missed by viewers.
Nick had literally no options anymore when Pryce took him in. He had been shouldering himself with the responsibility to care for his dad and brother and because he was looking out for Josh who was disappearing on alcohol binges for days, he got kicked out of jobs. Because there is no work life balance especially not in that crumbling society they had. He only got the information that they want to make the country better and that there would be a job in it for him. Now here is a gap that Bruce Miller and some of June's research filled. Nick joined them, they were made to believe that this would be good and happy for everybody and kids would be born again. Then the takeover happened. And Nick was immediately disillusioned with their cause. But he was too deep in, they went too far. It was comply or die. And it is good and real that he chose to stay alive, because it was better for June and he is slowly working, since after Offred 1 death, against Gilead.
So it isn't as easy to say he was having an extremist mindset. That was never shown to us. Additionally Nick is the least mysogynistic man in the show. He treats them all with the utmost respect.
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u/Logical_Deviation Oct 14 '22
Completely agreed on both points. I am definitely not Team Nick but I don't totally hate him. A little concerned about the people that think they're soulmates though, lol.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22
Yes, I never said he couldn’t change. Should’ve made that clear my bad. We’ve seen that he has. I was saying that I don’t think the change atones for what he’s done or make him a good person. A better one? Absolutely. There’s no denying how instrumental he’s been in the revolution. But there’s no coming back from that. Those extremist mindsets get people killed, harassed, hate crimes etc. They have to live with that forever , why should the perpetrators get to get over it?
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 14 '22
The thing is he wasn't a perpetrator. He was clearly baited into joining the SoJ, who didn't present themselves as an extremist group but a religious one that wants to change the world to the better. BM told us that Nick got disillusioned with Gilead once the takeover happened. He didn't know. And things like the slavery, the Handmaids, that was all done later. Nick was in a position to comply when the takeover happened or to die. Surely most would chose to stay alive. And this was a good thing because it would have happened with or without him but now he was in to help Mayday and June. And now he is able to infiltrate deeper to help out more.
Margaret Atwood and a THT writer both emphasized that Nick is portrayed to be a good man that got unknowingly caught up in a terrorist cult. He was trapped too. No perpetrator but a victim. This is what MA said too. In Gilead there are many men that are victims too. Yes he joined SoJ and even if his intentions were not malicious, it was a mistake and he will never forgive himself because this forced him to do stuff he never wanted. But I don't blame him. I learned enough in school and from family history about how those groups work to see that this doesn't make him a bad man. And he is actively working against them, even before June came along. It was surely a lot of small things but we know he did a lot of big things too and he will continue on this part. He is playing it smart though and that takes time and patience.
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Oct 15 '22
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 15 '22 edited Oct 15 '22
This would not apply to cops in any way shape or form. Cops aren’t obligated to join, it’s a career choice in a society with free will.
All cops are bastards. It doesn’t mean that no “good” people that are cops exist , it means that they’re all actively participating in a system that oppresses minorities. If you join the force, see how bad it was, then choose to stay you are complicit. Most “good cops” are exactly that, they themselves aren’t bad during their arrests but they make no active effort to call out their colleagues or the police force.
No cop is a good cop. Because a good cop is still actively enforcing a broken system. Also studies show that minimum 40% of cops are domestic abusers. And that’s the minimum. Imagine how high the number actually is considering how little the victims are to report because they’re the police.
It’s incredibly easy to go into private security as a cop and pays much better. Being cop and participating in oppression is a conscious choice. Especially considering they literally teach racist rhetoric in training
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 15 '22
But he is. As a man in this society who was complicit in the making of Gilead, he absolutely is.
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 15 '22
Well thats your own opinion then. Based on your life experience and assumptions. I gave enough points that hint differently.
✌🏻
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u/Commie_Pigs Oct 14 '22
I don’t think you really understand Nick. He made the best decision for security and a job in his life in a society that was falling apart. He wasn’t given all the information up front. I’m sure it sounded like a good offer. Once he realized what Gilead really was, he was in too deep. You just can’t quit your job as part of Gilead’s network. In the show he has constantly shown us that he is a good person. In the dystopian world of Gilead, you can’t be 100% good. It’s about survival, and he has a good heart. They’ve all done things.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 15 '22 edited Oct 15 '22
“Best decision” lmao. He wasn’t given all the information upfront but he more than likely enough to know they were bad people with wonky beliefs. That’s not a good offer. And again, I’m not condemning him for what he has to do once Gilead has substantial power. At that point, it was do or die.
Other than helping the resistance (which in my opinion least you can do after realizing you helped and enforced incredibly oppressive ideologie) what has he done to show us he is a good person? Is pryce suddenly a good person for helping? Be nice to June (the woman he’s attracted to?) Not sleep with a 15 year old( bare minimum) and be a dick to her in the process? Being reluctant to rape (also bare minimum)?
Making up for past sins doesn’t automatically get you a ticket to good person land. Plus to me, his main motivation being June makes his actions mean even less. If she wasn’t in the picture he’d be ratting out resistance members as the eye.
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u/Commie_Pigs Oct 17 '22
You can see his facial expressions when something bad is happening. He doesn’t agree with the evils in Gilead. People don’t have to be lumped into a good person or bad person category. I’m not saying he hasn’t done bad things. He was an eye after all.
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u/International-Rip970 Oct 14 '22
What we know about Nick's role in the US takeover and his involvement is speculation. Thanks to the writers, very little has been explained about this character so most are left to read that he was a mastermind in Gilead coming to be. Since they haven't bother to reveal much about him, he is a very devisive character. Shame on the writers for this
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Oct 14 '22
100000% agree. I'm not a Nick fan, but I place the blame of not being a fan solely on the writers for absolutely dropping the ball with the character every single episode.
I remember when they all actually defended his lack of lines when interacting with June as "they don't need conversation" or some such shit. Like, they literally excused their underwriting of his character as romance. Come on!
Meanwhile they write the hell out of Lawrence and Lydia and Serena. Heck, even Janine gets far more character development.
Is it any wonder the character leaves people cold? He barely speaks and when he does he says as little as possible in as an unemotional way as possible.
Honestly if I were the actor I'd be PISSED OFF.
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u/DiscombobulatedNow Oct 15 '22
This is a great point. They could give us backstories of him as well. Such little is being told. I hope they are holding their cards to their chest because it is a lazy way to develop a character that everyone has fallen in love with.
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u/GuiltyLeopard Oct 14 '22
I think Nick is an okay person, but I don't know if he "deserves" anything. I don't think he'd have to work as hard to redeem himself as, say, Serena, Lawrence of Lydia, but he's got blood on his....face.
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Oct 14 '22
I think he is a survivalist. He has power in Gilead that he may not have had otherwise. So, I do think he is aware that he has a life in Gilead that is probably better than what he was looking at before.
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u/lemonlimesherbet Oct 14 '22
At what cost, though? Especially to those whose lives have been ruined by Gilead. My problem with Nick is that he doesn’t ever seem to acknowledge or appreciate how many people had to be abused, tortured or killed for him to have the life of comfort that he has or be in the position of power he’s in.
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Oct 14 '22
That's kind of why I find him interesting. I think it's a good look at what does actually happen when people who didn't have much power before suddenly get some. Of course, we wish that every single person could be a beacon of morality but that doesn't always happen. That's why I like this show... not one character is perfect and I don't need them to be.
I think he helps June because he loves her, and I do think as the season keeps going we will see him start to think about your questions. Like it's clear that his wife is also thinking about those questions... she even poses them to him at the end of the last episode. It will be interesting to see how it pans out.
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 14 '22
It is interesting to me how people think he loves the power when this was never shown.
His promotions both were Waterfords way to get rid of him and he failed big time. The first part with Eden was shown. It was basically explained why. The second one they left to our imagination, as to why he became a Commander which is really maddening, because Joseph explained it as Fred wanting Nick dead after he held him at gunpoint but he couldn't do it the usual way, because it would have harmed his position. But he could promote Nick and send him to the front, basically in hopes he would die there.
The only job Nick pursued was to be an Eye. And we got directly shown why: to spy on Commanders and get them killed. Nick already has helped to get rid of 4 hotshot Commanders!!
Of course he is not perfect. But people love to make him the big villain when he just is not and never was.
Now he wants to keep being a Commander, but I highly assume this is because he is not done with Gilead, to atone for ever getting involved with them. And he promised June to help with Hannah as far as he can.
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Oct 14 '22
I think it is implied that he is seeking power. It started when Fred was talking to him in the diner pre-Gilead. Even other people notice it, like Commander Mackenzie in this season.
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 14 '22
That was never the implication. And if you thought this was Fred I think I know why you didn't understand the scene. He was on the lowest point of his life but wanted to care for his family at 19 years old. Shouldering all the responsibility. He only got fired from jobs because he had to go search for his brother again and again before he would drink himself to death. Society was an ass to him. There was no job left for him. And then came Pryce and told him that he can help him. Of course he was listening. He was even hesitant first because it would be too good to be true. But Pryce took him under his wing.
There was no implication of seeking for power. Just a teenager bottoming out in life taking the last straw.
And MacKenzie didn't realize why Nick would marry the daughter of a high Commander that is "coincidentally" really good friends with the family that has one really special daugher. Namely one Hannah Bankole.
Of course he thinks it's for power. And Nick will need all the power he can get, because he is actually very cleverly infiltrating the power structure, while working with Mayday as was constantly hinted at. So that is not a bad thing for Nick and the resistance movement. But we as viewers should be noticing why Nick probably chose this connection. For June.
So there you go. This shows he is not doing any of that for power. Although it never hurts to have a spy rising the ranks.
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Oct 14 '22
That's literally what I'm saying and that happens all the time in society. I gave an example of Neo-Nazis preying on vulnerable young men who have nothing and yes, of course the idea of power is there. It would be ridiculous to think that power is not attractive to younger people. We instill the idea of power in young men at a very early age. We tell them they are nothing with money, career, women, etc. We don't make it safe for men to fail in this world.
Anyway, I have no idea if you mean another person or what because we are in agreement. I don't have anything to debate you about so perhaps try another person.
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 14 '22
You wrote it is implied that he is seeking power. But it isn't. That's the part I refered to. That's the part I disagree with.
And you still say it and I still don't see it. Nick was in for a job. ANY job. He would have worked in retail for all he cared. He just wanted to help his family. And he got to be an errand boy, a driver. There is no such thing as power implied here. If Pryce would have asked him to be his right men, that would imply power. "Maybe there is a job in for you" is just giving a poor guy a last option.
Nick was never presented to actively seek or want any power. At least not for the sake of having power. Only time he seemed to be seeking out a kind of promotion was joining the Eyes, but that was to get rid of Commanders, not essentially for power, but for revenge you need at least some.
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u/fokkoooff Oct 14 '22
Out of curiosity, why do you think he's less guilty than Lawrence?
Yes Lawrence is the "architect", but if he drew out the plans for the building, Nick was on the construction crew.
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Oct 14 '22
I mean this happens all the time in society. We focus on the little people instead of the bigger picture and the greater enemy. Lawrence created and orchestrated Gilead as we know it. Nick just capitalized on the situation. These are not the same.
It's reminds me when people focus entirely on the Hutus for leading the Rwandan Genocide. Yes, of course their actions were horrible. But we have to remember that it was a direct result of Belgian colonization. Yet, no one talks about how Belgium just walked away from that country after completely fucking it up. People place the blame entirely on the Hutus and that simply isn't the case. If Belgium never colonized, this situation wouldn't have happened.
Same thing, if Gilead was never created, Nick wouldn't have been on the construction crew.
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u/fokkoooff Oct 14 '22
Can the same be said in the reverse though?
If Lawrence and the rest of Gilead's founders didn't have willing people like Nick to execute their attacks, Gilead would have never been created.
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u/ruskiix Oct 14 '22
Without Lawrence’s help, Gilead would’ve failed already. And technically I don’t fault him for what he’s done because a failed Gilead would likely mean a LOT more people dead from starving to death or executing more rebels. Lawrence is trying to keep the system functional enough to sustain life. It’s difficult to completely condemn him when he was faced with a fertility crisis that would end our species.
Without Nick, everything in Gilead would be the same or worse, just with a different guy driving the Waterford’s around and ordered to try to get June pregnant. Nothing he did made Gilead any more or less possible.
Gilead is less horrible having men like Nick, because there are things he’s willing to work against while still existing within the system. Condemning him for existing within the structure is essentially wishing that June had been faced with someone much worse when Serena decided to bypass Fred to get a baby. It’s wishing that June hadn’t had someone to help her smuggle those photos and letters to Canada. Etc etc.
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u/skcup Oct 14 '22
. It’s difficult to completely condemn him when he was faced with a fertility crisis that would end our species.
I mean, I do not agree. I would much rather see our species end than see it survive due to enforced and ongoing systems of crimes against humanity.
I think condemnation is fairly well earned there.
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u/LongjumpingNatural22 Oct 15 '22
id have to see what Lawrence’s academic writings were to know if i couldn’t blame him or not. like when he came up with the colonies…is this what his idea looked like? i find it hard to believe that Gilead twisted it beyond recognition & it wasn’t at least semi sinister to begin with.
i feel like if the major concern was the fertility crisis it definitely could’ve been handled humanely. why not offer full on Queen Bee status to all women who have had children before & are willing to join the cause? like literally treat them like the Queens/Goddesses of gilead and offer artificial insemination with them choosing the fathers they’d prefer? & let them all live in giant castle with their kids & free round the clock service? lol
then highly regulate environmental shit, throw out the religious garbage, and boom it’s Gilead but not horrible.
idk it makes me wonder if it’s even possible to solve existential issues without hatred & denigration to rally around. it sadly seems like that’s been one of the most effective strategies in history.
sorry for the raaaaamble
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Oct 14 '22
Of course! There will always be the willing and those who would capitalize on an opportunity like this. However, the opportunity must exist first. That's why I find this show quite interesting because it really shows that people aren't back and white. It also shows just how vulnerable people can be to the whim of the elite. And how the elite can use people to drive their agenda by offering scraps of power.
I don't know if it makes Nick a bad person entirely and I lean towards no. I think a lot of vulnerable people with no money, no prospects, and very little power can get swept up into performing tasks for the elite. We see it in other areas of society like MLMs even. Those "huns" that people hate so much... to me, they tend to be vulnerable women. Yet, here we are with snark subreddits absolutely shitting on them for not knowing better and for being annoying. Yet we forget that the CEOs of those organizations are predominantly men.
Or even all the discourse around Neo-Nazis. How for some of them, being a Neo-Nazi doesn't just mean racism. It tends to be the case that many of those joining are poor white men with little opportunity and community. Neo-Nazism offers them this.
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 14 '22
Who wouldn't be willing if they had the option to do it or to die?!?! The Handmaids had a similar option. To be popping out babies or die. All of it sucks, those are no options. But most people want to stay alive. Which is good though because you need people inside to burn it down.
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u/fokkoooff Oct 14 '22
He joined willingly? He wasn't forced or coerced.
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 14 '22
Oh yes he was forced. We got to meet a guardian that could flee in season 2. He explained how it was. He had to comply. He was forced to even hang his ex lover on the wall and couldn't do anything of course. I always saw him as a small replacement to give us another hint that men were forced too, especially the lower class, meaning Nick.
And BM hinted majorly at that too when he said that Nick got disillusioned with Gilead once it got violent but it was too late to get out. He would have been killed for treason.
That's not willing. But as we heard in the testimony of June, they all got a choice and could just go to die. But really what kind of choice is that?? That's why I said "who wouldn't follow willingly if given that choice"
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u/Neither_Juggernaut71 Oct 14 '22
Lawrence is absolutely worse. Men like him recruited young men like Nick.
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u/GuiltyLeopard Oct 14 '22
Nick did not have any real power before Gilead. He needed a job. Maybe something in construction? My impression is that most or all of the commanders came from powerful families in the United States. It just wasn't good enough to have quite a lot of power, they needed all the power. They could all be living perfectly happily in what we now call New England, going to fancy parties, eating macarons, drinking champagne, basically living like they do now. If Nick hadn't jumped on board, he wouldn't be alive.
That said, I think I hear what you're saying. An architect can't do much without a crew.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22
Agreed. But I think my point is more that he doesn’t deserve redemption period. Not that he’s as bad as Serena, Fred &co who have a much more active role in the violence. What he participated in was heinous
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u/microvegas Oct 14 '22
Nick is a fictional character and doesn’t “deserve” anything. The question is whether you’re analyzing the show from a narrative perspective or from the perspective of your personal biases. Nick doesn’t have to be a good person, and he doesn’t have to “deserve” redemption in order to get a redemptive arc. His character is not so black and white as you seem to believe. But many viewers lack the ability to understand nuance in this show for some reason.
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u/AltSpRkBunny Oct 14 '22
There are a lot of fans of this show, who either only show up for the “romance” aspect of it, or to project their own emotions onto the characters. Then they end up not understanding anything that’s going on, because they can’t see the characters’ motivations outside of their own emotions. Then they come on reddit to complain about the story not meeting their personal emotions and motivations.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22
What personal bias? I never said he couldn’t get a redemption arc I said I think it’s weird that so many fans believe he does. I am analyzing the show from what we were shown. If I were talking about who June loves more, or who she should end up with i’d get what you mean. But I don’t think any personal biases are here other than my own belief that violent bigots can’t atone.
Also what about this particular aspect of his character isn’t black and white? Im genuinely asking what you think because I don’t see it. I understand the nuance of the show and it’s characters. For example, the complexity of June going off the rails and killing. What happened with Luke. Even Serena’s participation in getting gilead up, because as awful as she is and what she’s done, she was building a society that oppresses her.
But what about a MAN joining an extremist group built to oppress, rape and abuse women not black and white? Or how little he cared before that woman’s death? There’s not much nuance to it. He didn’t join under duress or when gilead was already up and running and refusing could cost him his life. Other aspects of him like his love for June, his marriages, him having to stay commander so he won’t be killed despite no longer agreeing, sure. But to me, this is particular is pretty cut and dry.
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u/haleighr Oct 14 '22
My toxic trait is I love Nick and will die on that hill. (I also love chuck bass and big to give you an idea)
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u/hallowbirthweenday Oct 14 '22
A lot of people seem to forget how desperate he was trying to care for his father, support his alcoholic brother, and hold a job. IMO he participated because he didn't have a lot of choices.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
This just feels like such a ridiculous reasoning tho. It’s not like he just joined a club. These people are evil abusers, having a hard life doesn’t mean you can do whatever and bare no judgement. Some of the people in charge probably had terrible hardships too.
There is always a choice. Especiallt when it comes to supporting this kind of ideology. He didn’t just get 9-5 at an extremist group that held meetings and handed out flyers. He got a job being complicit in enslaving women.
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u/bohemianfling Oct 14 '22
Everyone is acting like Gilead just came out of the gate with “All aboard! We’re gonna enslave some women!” If they did that no one would have joined. Cults twist rhetoric to their advantage. What Nick saw was an opportunity for a good job with good pay. That’s it. When he realized what it was, he was probably in too deep. Organizations like that are notorious for keeping members in the dark.
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u/hallowbirthweenday Oct 14 '22
No one is saying anything like your life was hard so you can do whatever you want. Not even close, and your inability to discern nuance or understand societal motivations leads me to believe you're either (1) very young, or (2) lack the cognitive capacity for critical reasoning. I'm betting number 1.
First, you have to remember that watching a show isn't real life. Viewers have third-party point of view and know things the characters don't know. The passage of time, different pieces of information, etc. and what you're alluding is overly simplified in a literary context.
Second, social psychology is an entire discipline of how people WILL shock strangers because an authority figure ordered it. People WILL be brainwashed by cults. People WILL follow mobs. These aren't debates; they're statistically verifiable and replicable studies (where ethics permit). The more you believe you wouldn't do anything like that indicates a lack of flexibility in your thinking and self-awareness. Know what that correlates to?? Increased likelihood and susceptibility to exactly the types of groups you're railing against.
Of course it's upsetting to watch the current political climate and THT because....well, JFC, look around. It's horrifying on so many different levels that a dramatic show isn't an escape but a fucking survival guide. Instead of getting bent over the show, spend some time learning about yourself and others and their motivations and how to effect change in your tiny part of the world.
Ask yourself if you would "support" a fascist regime to save the life of someone you love while trying to undermine them from the inside. If you still think that's ridiculous, then rewatch Schindler's List because I don't know what else to tell you.
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u/teepee-bear Have a nice life! Don’t get caught! Keep away from drugs! Oct 14 '22
I would infiltrate the shit out of a fascist regime to save my loved ones and possibly some strangers along the way.
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Oct 15 '22
It didn’t happen overnight. He was “groomed” for his position…overtime.
Also, this post seems awfully high and mighty. Arrogant even. He was a young man 19, trying to do his best to provide for himself and his family while also trying to keep tabs on his brother. Rock bottom it would seem - with no available job for him. With no job that means no food to eat, no bills getting paid, homeless. Etc. Total destruction of one’s everyday life. It’s a desperate feeling.
Then a powerful man drops a job in his lap.
It would seem that you don’t know how that feels. Anyone who’s ever hit rock bottom knows that #1. You don’t always make the best, most clear decisions in desperation mode. #2. You will do anything to not be at rock bottom anymore.
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u/hkkklll Oct 14 '22
OMG SAME! Chuck and Nick fo life! 😂 Apparently I have a thing for characters I shouldn’t ga
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22
And that’s fine. You’re entitled to liking who you like. That’s not really my issue I understand that, they’re not real. But at least be honest about all the terrible things he’s done/ been complicit in/
This is a completely different genre so idk how many people will get this. But in the vampire diaries, there’s a character named kai who’s a total sociopath who killed his siblings. I love his character but I’m still able to say he’s a terrible person who doesn’t deserve much. Ya know
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u/lemonlimesherbet Oct 14 '22
I love Chuck as a character for entertainments sake but would never attempt to justify his actions or claim he’s a good person by any means.
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u/forensichotmess Oct 14 '22
I think at first he just needed a job. Then at some point he realized he was too deep in it to get out and just went along with it. I think over time he saw the atrocity that became Gilead and is trying to make up for his role in creating it.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22
I can agree with that but that also kind of supports my opinion of him being complicit, that their extremism wasn’t a turn off in terms of working there.
As a real life example, if this is truly the case, it’s kind of similar to knowing your friend is a serial rapist that abused women but still staying friends with them. That still makes you a bad person and supportive. No job is worth that
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u/Sarelbar Oct 15 '22
Dude, what? How is your example even remotely relevant to Nick’s story within Gilead?
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 15 '22
This was pre me being told that apparently nick had no clue about the plans for handmaids. But if he did, my example makes perfect sense to me?
Serial rapist = Gilead
Person staying friends = nick
I’m confused on where the disconnect is? genuinely, not trying to be snarky lmao.
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u/Worldly-Detective-94 Oct 14 '22
I feel like Nick was groomed by commander pryce. I doubt he thought cleaning up the country was more than a stable job at first. By the time he realized he was too far in. Kill or be killed. I don't think he was as instrumental as Serena insinuated and he became an eye when he finally realized what Gilead was after first offred killed herself
Most guardians didn't have a choice.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22
He wasn’t tho. He met him once and then was offered a meeting. If I’m interpreting it correctly, that means Nick went to a meeting heard them talk about what they believe in and then agreed to stay. That’s not grooming
Nick joined when Gilead was just an idea, he did have a choice.
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u/Worldly-Detective-94 Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
Obv this was way back in seasons but he didn't invite him after the first meeting. He had been trying to help him for a while. I just had rewatch before the new season so I'm fresh with this. He talks about the jobs that didn't fit and how he called in favor to get him the job...eventually invites him to a meeting bc he's "a good soul" and they're gonna clean up the country.
If you think back to June in hiding at Boston globe., the newspaper clippings and news was showing sympathizers. Not necessarily wanting Gilead but wanting to fix what was wrong. I doubt those people truly knew what was gonna happen.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 15 '22
Like I mentioned earlier. He may not have known the extremes of what was going to happen. But he knows their values. He joined an extremist group, there’s 0 way he wasn’t aware of their awful views on what was “wrong” with America.
It’s my bad on saying it was one meeting tho. I don’t really think that changes my point tho.l from what we know factually right now, he was not manipulated into joining.
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u/Worldly-Detective-94 Oct 14 '22
Did you see the new inside the episode yet? They discuss these issues around nick. I'm not yay nick always. He is a complicated character. I think Serena telling June he was instrumental was pure bs. Instrumental in Gilead creation and then he's a driver? I just don't see it.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 15 '22
I’m like 96% sure Serena lied about him being instrumental. But the other part of me wonders because I’d assume you would have to be HIGHLY trusted to be made an eye. If she wasn’t lying, I think it would be more him running “errands” and doing tasks for the commanders that were very important. Not him actually being an evil mastermind. I think there’s way too much material of him hating the gilead when no one is around to watch for that to be the case.
And I don’t disagree that Nick is a complicated character. Especially after turning a new leaf but having to stay commanded for his safety + help with the revolution. More so oppose that this particular issue is complicated. If he had “joined” (force or be killed) when the takeover happened my view on this would be completely different. At that point, it’s a survival thing. But that’s not the case and I fail to see how a man actively participating in this no matter how hard his life was is excusable or understandable in any way shape or form.
Another scenario that would change my view on this was if when they takeover happened and the lengths they were going to was exposed, Nick did a 180 and was actively (secretly) working against the gilead like he is now. It’s still bad, but it’s not as terrible as not really caring then suddenly giving it your all when a girl comes into the picture.
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u/Sinnika Oct 14 '22
How do you know what he knew? You’ve got a very strong negative opinion based on very few facts.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
Common sense? A lot of religious extremist groups today in real life hold similar values. You don’t join something like that without knowing at least the basis of what they believe in.
Take right wingers for example. They join these groups because they agree with the basis. Racism, white power, looking down on poor people etc. Some of these people probably never would have committed violent hate crimes if they didn’t join and eventually get engulfed into it. But that doesn’t make them any less guilty or any less of bad people. Because at the end of the day they support those ideologies.
It’s almost childish to think he had no idea
I know we have very few facts. Hence why I’ve mentioned multiple times things a long the lines of “from what we know now”. But this in particular isn’t really a speculation. There is 0 way that when he went to his first meeting it wasn’t riddled with bigotry. Fred said bigoted things to the public as a whole before Gilead was even a thing. Do you really think he would hold back for his actual religious cult? Lmao
And again. I said multiple times that he probably didn’t know the extent out it. But he still knew they believed awful things
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u/Wise-Discount3000 Oct 15 '22
You really, really don’t understand the way most extremist groups recruit. You’re basing everything on right wing racists in America who want to be apart of something because they fully buy into and benefit from the ideology. That’s definitely the reality for many members of these groups, but the show did a fantastic job of showing that those are not the only types people who get preyed upon and drawn into these cults.
They would not have written Nick’s story and character the way they did if he was one of those guys. The writers have confirmed this so many times — including Kira Snyder in a recent tweet. But it seems that you’re pretty sold on the way you see things so it feels kinda pointless pointing out any of this stuff.
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u/Sinnika Oct 14 '22
That’s not evidence. This is a TV show and common sense left it a long time ago.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22
This tv show is heavily rooted in reality. Playing out what would happen if something like Gilead took over. And again, if he didn’t know the basis. Why didn’t he leave when he did find out? He joined when the sons of jacobs when Gilead wasn’t a thing.
And before you try to say it’s because he was scared, we were literally shown in season 1 how little he cared until that handmaid died. No matter how you look at it, he was complicit and knew enough to know it was awful. Their belief system is literally bigotry. You can’t build an cult of people willing to do things like this without them agreeing with you on some level. Otherwise gilead wouldn’t exist. They related to these people’s beliefs and then up the stunts more and more until gilead doesn’t seem that far fetched.
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u/lucid-dream Oct 14 '22
What’s your position on, for example, white supremacists that reform and go on to be anti-racist activists/advocates?
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u/benofie Oct 14 '22
None of us ever saw what Nick heard when he went to his first SoJ meeting. And an evil cult will never reveal their evil plans on day one.
I seriously doubt Nick went to a meeting and heard this: "Ok so here's the deal, we're a terrorist organization planning to take over the United States and replace it with a fascist regime that will keep women as sex slaves and oppress all people except those at the top... sound good?"
There is a subtle detail in 2x03 when June is going through articles at the Boston Globe and she listens to a recording of an interview with a SoJ member. He was talking about community work and helping kids. And think about some of the values Gilead boasts like family values, cleaning up the environment, helping children... those were probably used to draw in members and then later the group would become more violent. It also isn't a stretch to think that SoJ operated like Gilead and anyone who spoke up, tried to leave or report them would be punished or killed. And no one is left to fight back if everyone who opposes them chooses death over compliance.
Even in the limo when Nick is driving the commanders he seems to be hearing about the handmaid system and ceremony for the first time based on his reaction. By then, the take over had already happened. He definitely didn't know everything he was getting into and agreeing to when he first joined.
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Oct 14 '22
He did not meet Pryce just once. If you watch that scene it is quite clear that Pryce has helped Nick get a job multiple times and even knows him. Pryce says he called in a favor to get Nick his previous job. But Nick wasn't able to keep jobs because he was taking care of his brother and father.
Pryce saw this as an opportunity and made a proposition to him. He clearly misled Nick by saying that they were "going to clean up the country."
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u/Useful_Rise_5334 Oct 14 '22
Oh I think Pryce one of the Gilead good guys, if they exist, loathsome but some good in there. I don’t think he was misleading Nick. I think he was a true believer and he passed some of that on to Nick.
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u/Yunie333 Oct 14 '22
Ok, so what was said in this meeting you seem to know more of?
You make it sound like the SOJ was giving them all details on what they want to do (the bombings, overthrowing the country, handmaid system etc.) right from the start, which is most certainly not true. (So no, you do not necessarily interpret it correctly)
In S2x03 we can see some clippings June collected in the Boston Globe which feature articles about the SoJ. In these headlines the SoJ is presented as a religious group that helps the poor and struggling. So basically the Nick's of the country. Nick joined cause he needed a flexible job to help his Dad & brother & Pryce was offering him that.
As others here pointed out, groups like them rely on grooming people in need.
Nick's part in the takeover & what he knew or not is pure speculation, but what we do see with a 100% certainty is Fred & Serena in the cinema when they received the message that the attacks were happening (2 weeks later). But these two are the true architects of Gilead, they knew everything about the plans, and Nick & Fred have never even met until after the takeover happened & Nick drove him, Pryce and Guthrie (see 108 for reference).
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u/Worldly-Detective-94 Oct 14 '22
Exactly. SOJ was recruiting sympathizers. People who were sick over the economy, so called depravity of society, their wives not being able to have children. They used all that as a cover to slaughter the US govt and takeover. I doubt the average member knew they'd be hanging bodies on the wall and buring books and magazines. Clean up the country wasn't a known code for steal your children and wives.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22
I mean he may not have known the lengths. But he knew their core values. Sexism, violence, rape, homophobia etc. the PUBLIC was presented the son of jacobs as that, but if you actually joined, you knew what they were actually about. Again maybe not the lengths they were gonna go to, but they knew what they stood for. And again, Nick literallt didn’t care until that girl died. So your argument is kind of invalid. Even when he knew everything he wasn’t outraged.
I’m not saying Nick was the mastermind obviously, he wasn’t a commander. If he had power, he would’ve been. But he was complicit in making it happen, even when it wasn’t a safety issue.
Needing a job is a poor ass excuse to join an extremist group lmfao. The grooming argument is just an excuse to absolve Nick. Was he probably a little manipulated into viewing it as the only solution? yes. But groomed in the abuse sense? From what we know now, no. No matter how you slice it, Nick agreed with some their fundamental views. Why else would he stay? A job isn’t worth that.
Being groomed in the abuse sense means to be manipulated and build trust until they victimize them. He is not victim. He was groomed in the other sense of the word to be the eye, but all that means is he got trained.
There is no excuse for what he did. None at all.
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u/Yunie333 Oct 14 '22
And again, HOW do you know Nick knew about their so called "core values"? Pryce only said Nick's a good soul for taking care of his family. And when he picked up on the fact that Nick knew scripture, he hooked him with that too.
Nick also was disgusted with the handmaid plans they discussed while he drove them around, but yes, choose to lay low...
You assume so many things about the SoJ, the takeover etc. but can't proof any of your points. We literally don't know what is said in their early meetings (could've been: Hey we value families in a traditional sense and want to make sure kids & teens like you have a purpose) and, we don't know what Nick exactly did during the takeover, what happened to his brother & father...
As to why he stayed, we meet a refugee guardian who explains that he used to be military & that they were all made guardians after the takeover and had to do unspeakable things or else they would've been executed...so this is how an extremist group makes you complicit... doesn't of course mean that this happened to Nick, but again, we literally don't know!
So yeah, better not make assumptions on what happened & disguise them as fact.
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u/idkboo Oct 14 '22
He stays close with Commander Pryce, who held a lot of power before dying. I always thought he was an eye, as Nick talks to him about spying on Commander Waterford and the flashback scenes. Nick also pretends he didn’t really know Commander Pryce later on.
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u/lld287 Oct 14 '22
And he wasn’t a child being groomed. Wasn’t he an adult? I have some sympathy for him in the sense that I believe people need to have an off-ramp from their worst behavior if they are legitimately changed, but Nick reminded me a lot of so many guys I know who don’t know what to do when they get the shitty things they wanted
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u/Wise-Discount3000 Oct 14 '22
He was 18, living in poverty, supporting his whole family, and could barely keep a job because he had to watch after his alcoholic brother who kept running off. He was desperate and offered a lifeline, sold on a lie about helping the country. Were these guys you knew also impoverished teenagers trying to support their family?
They don't say, hey we're gonna round up the fertile women and impregnate them and take away everyone's rights and kill a bunch of people up front. They didn't even propose the handmaid system until after the takeover (as we see in a flashback car scene in 1x08). By the time these people start to realize what's happening, it's often too late and they're faced with a decision to comply or die. We can judge all we want if we've never--thank god--been in a situation like that, but Nick's backstory is an incredibly realistic portrayal of how these things happen to everyday, well-intentioned people. Doesn't mean he isn't still complicit or that we don't hold him accountable, but the context of his circumstances are extremely important here. The show is intentionally asking--as with all the characters--to challenge the boxes we put people in.
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u/Worldly-Detective-94 Oct 14 '22
Grooming isn't just for pedos
If you read about isis recruitment online for example you'll see what I mean. Vulnerable people are chosen and groomed/exploited to lead them down the path to extremism esp with western recruits. Pryce took a vulnerable person, validated him and gained his trust, then we know what happened later.
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Oct 14 '22
I mean....I literally barely remember that scene, and I'd wager most fans barely remember it too. Tbh I'd say most fans don't really remember Pryces existence.
At a certain point we gotta stop blaming that guy for Nicks choices and start blaming Nick for Nicks choices.
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u/Wise-Discount3000 Oct 14 '22
Victim blaming, how fun! Yeah let's blame everyone living in poverty desperate to care for their loved ones for buying into grooming tactics.
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u/NoElle2409 We live in the gaps between the stories... Oct 15 '22
So just because you and other people don't remember things about the show, we all just have to pretend it didn't happen and that doesn't matter anymore? I'm sorry, if you don't remember something, or you consciously dismiss it because it contradicts your narrative, that's entirely on you. I like to pay attention on things before I reach to any type of conclusion about any subject.
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u/FigTrick2036 Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
I honestly don’t understand this interpretation of Nick’s character at all. His portrayal is, in my opinion, one of the most realistically human characterisations in contemporary screenwriting, although I will say there are some obvious gaps which, had they been filled by the writers, would likely put an end to this monotonous character assassination. Nick is depicted as flawed, complex, nuanced human being, which lets face it the majority of us are. Has he “made mistakes” of course and it’s obvious he is aware of that. Is he perfect no, and again I would say from what we see on screen, it is obvious he is aware of that. Yes he joined a group which turned out to be an awful right wing cult. Was it obvious at the time he joined it what it would ultimately become? No I doubt it was.
I am sure there is an active ideology group right now who is heading in the same direction to which almost half the “greatest nation on earth” are members. Does this make them all horrendous people who will never ever be forgiven? no, these people are living in a confirmation bias bubble perpetrated by fear and lies fed to them to result in their compliance and obedience, just I as imagine a lot of the earlier members of the SoJ were. We cannot condemn them all surely, but seek to guide them to alternatives. Because unless each and every one of us who know people taken in by a group like this are seeking to decondition them, protesting and marching for an alternative future then we are just as complicit in the end result and therefor deserve no voice to condemn
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 14 '22
Alright... seems like today there is much need of explaining things that have not been properly explained by the show and are only hinted at or integrated subtly in the storyline.
Nick was 19 (!!) years old and the sole carer for his family (brother and father). He couldn't hold a job because he had to rescue his brother a lot of times, trying to find him during his alcohol binges. Because of that, all those bosses who don't give any shits about human problems, kicked him out. Cmd. Pryce noticed that and offered help to Nick. It was literally his last straw to get a job. Pryce promised Nick a group that would help fix the country, which was in a really bad bad state and that there would be a job in for him, one where he can still care for his family too. That's what naturally lured him in. He had so much responsibility and even though he seemed skeptical, there was of course no doubt he would take on this opportunity. Bruce Miller, the showrunner, told us that Nick got disillusioned with Gilead once it got violent. So he did NOT get to know beforehand that they would kill, rape and enslave people to take over the country. Another guardian that could flee told Moira they had the option to help or die basically and he was forced to hang a guy he once dated even. Just similar to the Handmaids if you could say so, they got the "choice" to serve as a Handmaid or die in the colonies.
Nick was still a young adult, he wanted to survive, like most of us would have, especially at that age. So he just complied. We never got to see what he did but it is assumed that he was made into a soldier for the war and then afterwards, a driver for the Commanders, then a driver and Guardian (similar to the refugee guy). He was NOT one of the creators, otherwise he would have been a Commander after the fight. He was simply someone they took advantage of and tried to groom.
So then he got to hear their next plans as their driver. They introduced the Handmaids system, AFTER the takeover. Meaning they didn't tell this to people as well before shooting everybody down. He stated there that he thinks no attachment is the best way. But that was because he has already lost his family. In a cut line, he confessed to June that his brother drank himself to death and he blames himself for it and we have never heard of his dad again so he probably was gone too. He has already put up a mask to survive it all. Survival was the only thing that mattered anymore, probably hoping it would all be over one day.
Then the first Waterford Handmaid killed herself. Nick seemingly woke up from his state and realized that some of the women were treated so badly, that they prefered to die, rather than keep on doing this. So he got pissed. You can see it in his eyes when they brought her away and Serena accused Fred of being at fault. And he started on a revenge path.
He gathered intel on the guy that proposed the Handmaids system back there in the discussion in the car he drove for them and got him seemingly killed. He seems to have gotten the intel because he is a good dude that had already formed some connections to people who could help with information, like Beth, the Mayday Martha in Jezebels. ONLY then, because he brought Guthrie to fall, Cmd. Pryce made him a plainclothes Eye. Cmd. Pryce wasn't too happy that the Handmaids were treated like that and wanted to clean the country, a circumstance that came just right for Nick. This position would make him spy on Commanders and get them taken off the street. And he was not supposed to be snitching over the women or lower people like the regular Eyes. His first task was to gather intel on Cmd Waterford and to bring him into custody once he had enough dirt on him. So he wasn't one of the baddies. He did good. He spied on Commanders and tried to take them down. That was all shown. And by now he helped to kill 4 Commanders already.
But then June came and she became his nb 1 priority. He wanted her safe, then out, but she always came back. (Not willingly the first time of course) the first attempt was even because of him as is heavily nodded at. He saved her life in multiple ways and as soon as she got out, he took it on himself to watch out for her daughter. To give her information when she needed it or to maybe help getting her out.
And he only got to be a Commander because Fred "promoted" him to be one. He was supposed to be sent to the frontlines and hopefully die there then. It was a punishment for holding Fred hostage to get Holly out. But Fred could not just tell people that, because it would show that his household is not under control and it would pull the rug under Fred's power. So he tried to get rid of him that way, just like when he married him off to not be able to be with June. I know that this wasn't shown, only talked about in an interview. But it is what it is. But Nick is resourceful and survived and knows he needs to use this position to help. You have to have people up in the ranks that help the resistance and the higher the better. And he can get closer to Hannah that way better than on the wall or as a guardian. And yes I fully believe he is at least supporting Mayday, because they dropped hints during the whole show from season 1 to 4.
So that was long but now you maybe understand where people like me come from. He is truly a good person in a s***ty situation. Even one of the writers that worked on his backstory said this on Twitter last season. People have to play the regime to work against it in secret, which means you sometimes have to do stuff that is horrible, just to keep going and save more life in the end. And June fully knows that. She had to do it herself. Doesn't mean he is with the baddies or does believe anything about it.
And Max does great in showing that Nick is disgusted with all of it. A lot of times he already let his mask slip enough for us to see a glimpse of his true feelings.
So for me, he has done one bad mistake and I don't even blame him for that. Because he didn't really have any other option.I know a lot of people say they would have died before joining/helping Gilead, but the truth is that most of us would be too scared to die and would hope that it ends soon and we are liberated. And he was just a young adult.
All of my information is either shown in the show, or was added by interviews, bts book and the script. I see him as good and I know Nick even feels a lot of guilt even though he was forced. That guilt will further him on until they finally get him out.
One last thing before I go but it is a book spoiler: BOOK SPOILER START
Nick was written to be a spy for Mayday. He actually got June out after the pregnancy news. The show did a lot right and hinted at that, but as season 3 started, they threw in a lot of ambiguity for whatever reason. It isn't cool to try to twist a character like that. They should just show it, because apparently the hints are too subtle for a lot of people. And in the second book, Nick is mentioned as deeeeeep in the underground resistance, so deep he needs a breathing tube. And I hope they make it so.
BOOK SPOILER END
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Oct 14 '22
19 YEARS OLD?
OK where is that Canon please? Where is that in the script please?
Because its been only like 7 years and the guy looks like he's northside of 35!
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u/mysterious_calucci Oct 14 '22
His birthyear can be found on the board Tuello did. It was shown when June visits his office. On Nick's part he clearly writes "possible ally?" btw.
Nick's birthyear is revealed there to be 1993 and on the board it said that he joined the SoJ 2012. Making him 19 years old. When we meet Nick the first time he is 25 years old. But I think Max pulled it off. He was 30 actually, but he looks younger there. He filmed the latest season at 36. And it seems they aged him even to look more stressed and fucked up. There was a bts shot of season 4, where they seem to put more grey in his hair and Max said for episode 9 season 4, he ate unhealthy stuff and slept irregularly and less to look fucked up. And it worked because I think irl he still looks younger, most of the times.
But yeah. Nick was 19 when he joined SoJ.
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u/Commie_Pigs Oct 14 '22
I like Nick. He adds something to the show. Not everyone has to be a good person or a bad person.
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u/Sconesmeansno Oct 14 '22
For me the thing is we don't know enough. We heard things but not much confirmed. For me his story shows how A LOT of cultures/organizations et c took advantage of people who was abandoned by the society/government and promised something better. He is not a true believer like Lydia or Serena. I remember when he didn't want to talk to Switzerland cause he said that once you get into something it is hard to get out. So he probably didn't see a way out before June and he doesn't truly believes he deserves it either. The question still is what did he do, he wasn't a mastermind behind Gilead like Lawrence, still people are more forgiving towards Lawrence. Is Nick a bad person? From what we've seen I can't say he is. Did he for a time support something horrible, yes, but still I feel we do not know enough. And that is probably what the writers want, that we should be ambivalent about the character..
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u/Wobblenot Oct 15 '22
Everyone has their own take or opinion, yours is valid. I like Nick and think he is trying to be a change agent, but he is brand new to his role and must be compliant with the regime, for now. Between himself and Commander Lawrence, I see some minds working to change the behavior of Gilead. I think that they believe in it's core tenant, but the abduction and rape of women is a bit too far for Nick and Cmdr Lawrence. It's my take anyway.
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u/lucid-dream Oct 14 '22
I’m not the hugest Nick fan and I think his character is kinda boring (if I believed in “teams”, I’d be #teamluke) but I also think it doesn’t matter what you did yesterday, it only matters what you do today. Nick is a part of the resistance. It doesn’t matter if he’s a “good” person, only that he’s doing good things.
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u/malorthotdogs Oct 14 '22
Maybe it’s just because I’m from a low income rural area and was in high school when 9/11 happened. But Nick’s story seems to me like an allegory for the predatory nature of the military on young people without a lot of options, especially young men and people or color.
I watched a lot of my friends’ older siblings who were in the National Guard thinking they were “safe” and this was their only ticket to college end up being shipped off to the Middle East to come back with PTSD and severe xenophobia and Islamophobia. Same for some of my high school friends. Most of them have sort of leveled back out after they left the military and addressed some of their trauma. But in 2006? Some of them were literally posting pictures of dead Iraqi CIVILIANS in bombed out ruins on their Myspace pages like it was a positive thing. That was the level of othering and brainwashing they had to commit to in order to survive their situation.
We didn’t go a week without at least some form of military recruiter set up in our cafeteria. If your were eligible for free lunches, you got called to the guidance counselor’s office to be handed military pamphlets at least twice during your senior year.
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u/n0rth2alaska Oct 14 '22
I think Nick’s character provides a peek into both our own and society’s beliefs regarding redemption.
What makes a person worthy of redemption? Is redemption possible for even the most heinous offenders? Whose rules define who is redeemable and who is not? Why? Are people who have done terrible things capable of enacting real change? Are changes simply performative and tied to the person’s desire for survival? Do we deal with these people punitively or use restorative justice?
I like Nick’s character for that reason. We see a tender hearted side to him with June and Nicole along with his acts to help the resistance and undermine Gilead’s power. At the same time he continues to participate in their system of extreme abuse and participated in Gilead’s coup and following war. Has he changed? Is he redeemable or is he beyond redemption? I enjoy the puzzle.
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u/Norodia Oct 15 '22
I, for example, because my country had 50 years of dictatorship and I don't think that all the people in the country who were not executed were bad people.
Read more.
Anno the Jacob's sons later in Gilead wanted to purge the leadership of bastard commanders like Fred, that's why they put him in Waterford House. NIck did all he could in his position. Fortunately the world doesn't work in such a way that all people living under dictatorships are bad people.
But of course, in the real world, billions of people are still waiting for precise instructions on how to behave in a dictatorship, so if you could write a manual, that might help.
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u/Plastic_Candy_4509 Oct 15 '22
He's drip fed information. It's classic tactics cults use to get people in. They say they're fixing the country, trying to resolve the fertility issues etc. He starts out as an eye, a driver and he's already working with the resistance long before he becomes a commander. They picked him out as a vulnerable young man, lonely and emotionally disconnected from his family, struggling for work, probably really disillusioned from society. They drip fed him a really positive spin on what they were trying to achieve. It could be that he started working against Gilead pretty much as soon as he knew what they were about. I love how divisive Nick is as a character. I see people's negative points about him but he is interesting. I want June to stay with Luke though.
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u/danamo219 Oct 15 '22
I feel like insisting there’s no nuance in Nicks character and that he’s bad forever because of choices he made COMPLETELY IGNORES one of the basic points in this narrative, that people are just people and they do what they feel they have to do. They make choices and then they thrive or suffer with the consequences. Nobody is all good or all bad. Seems reductive to triple down on an ideology that isn’t even really true offscreen either.
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u/Stellychloe Oct 14 '22
Whew boy the Nick stans bout to come for you. I completely agree with you though. I don’t hate the character, and I think Nick and June are a good example of what a trauma bond can be like, but I don’t understand the hype he gets. I don’t like that he was complacent in it all.
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u/Far_Ad_1752 Oct 14 '22
Praise be! He’s an interesting and somewhat mysterious character, but that’s where it ends for me.
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u/Paytvn I'm sorry Aunt Lydia Oct 14 '22
Yep, exactly this! I’ll never understand the Nick hype either.
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u/Penelope1597 Oct 14 '22
Have to agree with what some clearly have stated. It’s always the same thing, having a black and white mentality and not understanding that complexities of these types of situations. Its very easy to assume everyone will do and act as you think they should.
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u/Buttsofthenugget Oct 14 '22
I am just amazed I didn’t realize in real life he has been dating the gorgeous Elle Fanning. 😊
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Oct 15 '22
I think we are watching a man on the years-long slow slide into evil. I’m sorry to see it and I want better for him, he has a chance to be a father with Rose, who seems a lovely woman.
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u/BlackAngel24345 Oct 15 '22
I don't think he is great person. I am rewatching before I watch season 5 but I am finishing up season 2 now and I hated what he did to Eden no wonder she cheated. I know she was 15 but he could have been nicer to her. Oh he picked the color of curtains that he knew she would like (sarcasm). So what!? He could have been warmer to her but he was cold. When she was crying on the edge but the bed begging him to work on their marriage even if she didn't say it out right. all he could say is. "I'm sorry, please stop crying." Like I was often yelling at him even though I knew he wouldnt do it. I hate cheating but shit I would have done it too if I knew I couldn't leave.
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u/cellardust Oct 18 '22
I agree with you 100% what Nick did cannot be excused so easily. A lot of people on this sub say he's atoned enough. Not even close. And I like Nick and June. But, I can't ignore "pretty privilege" is playing a part in me and others cutting him slack. Truth is if he was played by another actor? One that isn't so attractive, there wouldn't be so many people saying he has done enough to make up for his past.
There are people who stormed the Capitol that testified before the Jan 6th committee. Does that excuse their behavior? No.
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u/LongjumpingNatural22 Oct 15 '22
i disagree. the way I see Nick is that he was radicalized by a cult…and he woke up to that radicalization & has continued to undermine it. i think nicks motivations are complex & i don’t think he’s an amazing bastion of morality but i do think he’s a generally “good” person.
i think it’s weird to say that he’s irredeemable. why? what has he done that lands him in “irredeemable” territory?
to me, he’s stuck trying to survive in a heinous system/country & the mechanics of it are largely out of his hands, but we haven’t really seen him being cruel or unjust which is a lot for Gilead. considering his position now, he easily could be those things, but it’s not a part of his character to be imo.
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u/mannyssong Oct 14 '22
I absolutely agree with you. People like to pretend that he was never there in the beginning. Something that is often brought up if you DARE to say anything critical or slightly negative, is that he was a victim of class warfare who took an opportunity, nothing more. Which is hilarious because no one says anything remotely similar when we discuss these men in reality. No one is calling for sweet understanding for them, just Nick. I’ve never liked the way people chalk it up to Nick fans just thinking he’s hot…unfortunately I am starting think that’s part of it as well. For real though, don’t be surprised when people say they feel attacked by you just because you don’t like him.
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u/VardtheBard Oct 14 '22
I don’t like the «you just think he’s hot» argument. It’s used in all fandoms I’ve participated in and it’s usually not correct. And it makes people feel attacked because it implies they are stupid and are easily fooled by a pretty exterior. I think Fred and Serena’s actors are insanely hot for example, but they don’t have Nick levels of love. Nick has shown a sweet, caring and protective side to the protagonist, he’s stoic and action taking, he’s on the good side almost every time we see him on screen. The worst of his crimes is implied, not shown directly. That affects his likeability.
While for example Luke has plenty of flaws we spend a lot of screen time exploring, and despite having commited zero war crimes, unlike certain *other people*, he has a lot of haters (despite also being an attractive man).
I don’t like Nick, and agree with OP that his poor working class dude swept up in a cult to oppress women and various other minorities backstory doesn’t make him sympathetic. His open contempt for Eden also indicates to me that he’s not over his general misogyny, he just loves June. But I understand why others like him and feel that he genuinely has changed and regrets his past.
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u/Yunie333 Oct 14 '22
His open contempt for Eden also indicates to me that he’s not over his general misogyny, he just loves June.
Hard disagree. He was nothing but respectful towards every woman we saw him interact with. Rita constantly talked back to him, his friendship with Beth was sweet, he even gave Serena a cigarette after June's & Nichole's escape.
The way he treated Eden was cold, yes, but she was a teenager who wanted nothing more than to make a baby with him. Every time he was nice to her (complementing her cooking, remembering her favorite color) she wanted to go all in. He was completely overwhelmed with the situation. And most importantly, he regretted it and wanted to make it right.
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u/nemesiswithatophat Oct 15 '22
He did seem overwhelemed, but he was the adult in the situation and she was a teenager. It's not really an excuse.
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u/mannyssong Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 15 '22
I don’t think his level of attraction is the only reason, I have only started to think that is partially true for some fans given comments I have read outside this post. (Edit: now comments seen in this post as well)
I do find his character slightly interesting now because he has chosen to change his stance and work against Gilead in some way. It doesn’t change the fact that he was there in the beginning by choice and fans often try to bury that and get upset when it’s pointed out or discussed, that’s what I mean when I say people feel attacked. Every character is morally gray and we can talk about their positives and negatives, but not Nick. That tends to be the trend in a lot of posts or comment threads.
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u/Kikabennet Oct 14 '22
I think if Nick weren't brooding and handsome he wouldn't have as much of a fandom. Nick barely has a personality in my opinion and most of his scenes that convey any emotion are having sex with June so I think it's more the idea of Nick than his actual character that people like.
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u/Jawahara Oct 14 '22
I don't see his handsomeness. I mean diff'rent strokes, right? I find Luke to be way more handsome than Nick. All I see when I look at Nick...is...eyebrows.
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u/StanVanGhandi Oct 14 '22
Nick Suuuuuuucks! Who wrote his character? Is it the actor who is so boring? The writers? I feel like I have seen trees emote more than this guy. A pet rock is like Robin Williams compared to him. You didn’t even need an actor. They could have just got a wax mannequin from Madame Tussauds and stuck it on top of June while tense music plays.
He’s so boring he dreams in black and white. I bet if you cut him his blood is grey. I’d be handsome too if I never smiled, or frowned, or talked above a whisper my whole life.
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u/Lumpy_Importance8392 Oct 14 '22
We don't know his real story, just a few of flashbacks. Maybe he was not good at the beginning, but we haven't seen it at all. We start watching him with June, and all his activities were good, he did all that he could for June, and their baby. I think because of that many of us, who likes him, can't think of him in a bad way.
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Oct 14 '22
and all his activities were good
Like carpet bombing civilians in Chicago?
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u/Sinnika Oct 14 '22
What do you suggest he should’ve done? Let them put him in the the wall while someone else bombed them anyway? Because that was the option.
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u/Lumpy_Importance8392 Oct 14 '22
He couldn't help at this situation. He tried and we heard their conversation with commanders.
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u/Yunie333 Oct 14 '22
Lol, he had literally no choice but to do this, since it was a decision of the council. He was just executing their order 🤦🏼♀️
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u/sibshallward Oct 14 '22
i think it's interesting that a not-insignificant portion of what nick fans use to defend him and prop him up as the One Good Man comes from cut scenes and writers' notes in the script, rather than what's actually shown on screen
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u/Yunie333 Oct 14 '22
It's interesting that a significant portion of what Nick haters use to make him the bad guy comes from 2 cryptic sentences of third parties, rather than what we actually have seen him do on screen.
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u/sibshallward Oct 14 '22
damn, it's almost like he's a morally ambiguous character rather than the One Good Man, that's crazy
also i see more nick critics reference the fact that he literally joined a fascist cult and his treatment of his child bride, which we have seen, rather than what serena said, but slay12
u/Yunie333 Oct 14 '22
As June said "there's good men everywhere...even [ in Gilead ] it's just complicated" and the only thing that makes him ambiguous is the writing.
And the question is, how fascist has the cult presented itself when he joined?
And I'm sorry, bringing Eden into the mix at this point is laughable. He handled the situation poorly, that's true, but he tried to be nice (complimenting her cooking, remembering her favorite color) which backfired a lot cause she wanted nothing more than to have babies ...And then she posed a threat cause he didn't want to touch her cause she WAS a child & after finding the letters. But at least he admitted that he did things wrong, apologized and even wanted to make things right by offering her the family she desired...
But sure he's such a bad guy 🤣
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Oct 14 '22
Lol, apparently in order to understand his worthiness you have to look in the wastepaper basket on the Editors carpet.
The Nick we actually see on screen has the wit and personality of a boiled potato.
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u/sibshallward Oct 14 '22
lowkey nick’s worst crime is being boring
i don’t think he’s evil, i just don’t think he’s good
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u/DiscombobulatedNow Oct 15 '22
I would agree with you EXCEPT he told Lawrence that June changed both of them. He may have been that way before he’s admitting but he doesn’t feel the same anymore. He’s matured and grown. This to me is great character development. That’s why we have the expression walk a mile in his shoes. People don’t seem to care so much about others until it affects them. When it does they change - if they are good people - and actually become ashamed of their past. We should never be judged by our sins. That’s my take on it anyways.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 15 '22
Okay but, everything you just stated only reinforces my view of him being a bad person. How is is “great character development” to have basic human decency. He’s doing the bare minimum finally opposing Gilead’s views. Helping people escape is obviously important, but him changing sides means absolutely nothing to me. Congratulations he has empathy!
Why should you be judged by your sins? There’s just as much an extension of you as your achievements are. By your logic, everything he’s done to help also means nothing .
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u/DiscombobulatedNow Oct 15 '22
I am saying he has matured and developed. Yes he was a bad person but isn’t now. You are saying that no matter how much good, empathy he has or repentance with actually risking his life means he is STILL a bad person.
You are like a dog refusing to give up its bone. It’s ok to change your mind ya know.
Or you can keep hating a central character that may very well end up being the hero at the end and saving June and Hannah (I know in the book it doesn’t happen, that doesn’t negate that on the show it COULD). It’s all up to you. I sure hope you don’t judge people actually as harshly as you do characters in a tv show.
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u/Apprehensive-Elk7898 Oct 15 '22
I don't see what good labeling anyone in this kind of situation does. So you think he's bad, so what?
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u/Objective-Estate-605 Oct 15 '22
I don’t really know if I believe in the good/bad dichotomy to describe people. Aren’t we all shades of grey? All people have done things that they are so ashamed of…..Even “good” people. I like characters who are grey, because they are more realistic. I don’t identify with perfect characters in books, shoes, movies, etc.
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u/ShivsButtBot Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
I hate nick so these answers have been super interesting to read. Great question.
Edit: why did I get downvoted lol I’m being serious. It’s interesting to hear how other people view these characters. We are all viewing the world through incredibly different lenses.
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u/StanVanGhandi Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 14 '22
I hate Nick! If it were announced right now that nukes were just launched at the US my first thought would be “well, at least I don’t have to ever see that stupid ass character Nick again.” Brooding, stone faced Nick is the most boring character on television. Nick’s face is the same whether he witnesses genocide, sees a puppy, or is having sex.
Come on, how easy is it to play this guy? What was the audition? “Thanks for coming in, ok, in this scene something super emotional is happening that the audience is connecting with. What I want you to do is act as if you are pondering how grass grows or act as if you are watching paint dry but it makes you feel brooding, perfect!”
God I hate Nick. He has the emotional range of a slab of concrete.
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u/Efficient-Maize-4797 Oct 14 '22
So you created a post just to bash Nick? Lmao. You do know it’s just a show and he’s just a character right? Luke isn’t gonna reach out and kiss your arse for being nasty about his rival
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u/nemesiswithatophat Oct 15 '22
Man, some of you who are criticizing OP for caring so much about a fictional character are getting real heated about said character.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22 edited Oct 15 '22
Bash? You mean analyze and criticize a character on a tv show? That people seem to love despite what he’s done? A man who literally participate in creating a system that kills, tortures, rapes etc. Please be serious
The irony of your first sentence just to be absolutely triggered about this. And who even mentioned luke lmfaooo you’re acting like I insulted you personally.
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u/Efficient-Maize-4797 Oct 14 '22
I just think it’s pathetic, doesn’t offend me it’s just a show. Still I see these Luke supporters do it all the time instead of looking at the story of June you’re more obsessed with who she’s sleeping with. Personally I don’t think she needs either of them
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 14 '22
How is it pathetic to criticize a show lmfaoo. Nick is his own person?? I barely even mentioned June. Honestly, what are you even on about. This isn’t about who June needs or should end up with. Could not care less, I don’t particularly love luke.
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u/Efficient-Maize-4797 Oct 14 '22
You’re not critiquing a show you’re tearing a character apart. It was WRITTEN like that. What do you think you’re achieving by doing this? It’s like someone trying to psychoanalyse Freddy Krueger. It’s pointless, the writer wanted him to be that way, nothing you can say is going to change that.
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u/Jawahara Oct 14 '22
I mean there are entire college courses based on critical analyses of literary and/or fictional characters.
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u/netabareking Oct 14 '22
Actually a lot of people do analyze horror characters like Freddy Kruger, they don't all act the same and it's worth discussing when discussing media. Whole books have been written on horror killers. The only difference is you aren't enamoured with Freddy and don't take discussion of him personally.
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u/Efficient-Maize-4797 Oct 14 '22
Still absolutely ridiculous. I cannot understand why people take the time to do this. I love the show and am interested in story but I don’t over analyse the characters. Some I like others I don’t but it’s the way it’s written
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Oct 14 '22
Say it louder for the Nick stans in the back.
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Oct 14 '22
Nick was a son of fucking Jacob for God's sake. It's not like he was overly pressured into it, he took a job and didn't gaf who it hurt until he got eyes for the handmaid. He was a grown ass man making grown ass man decisions and betrayed his country. He was an eye and not just complicit, but an ACTIVE PARTICIPANT in Gilead's structures EVEN NOW. He only has an issue with it when it threatens his fucking side piece. Nick is a monster, dude.
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u/Objective-Ad9800 Oct 15 '22
Yup yup yup. The way everyone is downplaying what he signed up for is baffling to me. Especially as man. They’re all acting like the magnitude of what he did isn’t that bad. The lack of accountability to him is genuinely making me sad. Especially considering how much people RIP on actual victims of gilead for behaving certain ways. But somehow the man who joined is a good person who just had a hard life. Yeah okay. You would think that fans of a show like this would be aware of their own sexism.
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Oct 14 '22
He carpet bombed refugees in Chicago less than 6 months ago in universe time.
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u/Jawahara Oct 14 '22
Yeah, but he felt kinda bad for it like 2 seconds. I'm sure I saw an eyebrow waggle.
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u/TrixieVanSickle Oct 14 '22
He's a huge grey area. He's not a piece of shit, but he's also not an angel.
I don't think he realized the true level of Gilead's evil when he was an Eye before meeting June. He was simply a driver, guarding Commanders and washing the car.
I think that was an eye opener for him (no pun intended), especially when Serena forced him to have sex with June and then when (I forget her name) his child bride was executed. Remember that he was reluctant to consummate the marriage with such a young girl.
As he's climbed the ranks and been privy to more of the reality, he realizes what Gilead is, but he's in way too deep right now.
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u/ChristineBorus Oct 15 '22
It’s difficult to explain but I think he cares for or even loves June. They bonded over shared trauma. I see him as a survivor- just like June. His motives are complex. Just how I see it. He’s gray - and that’s difficult to like.
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u/Possible-Deer8219 Oct 15 '22
Okay, I am a Nick fan. I think that Nick’s purpose is to help dismantle Gilead from the inside. You can tell he thinks it is wack but is taking small steps to help dismantle it (Advocating for killing Putnum, helping kill Fred). If you want to do that, you kind of have to play the game unfortunately so that you don’t get caught. I also think this is what Lawrence is doing. All of their moments where they both seem to be perpetuating this society I think are because if they don’t to some degree, they will get caught. And if they get caught as helping the resistance then no one will be on the inside to help dismantle.
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u/Zealousideal-Ad-5917 Oct 15 '22
He will work with mayday to bring it down. He did not know the country would turn out like this. He has risked his life for june every season up until now
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u/ichosethis Oct 15 '22
It's hard to say how much Nick was involved in early Gilead. We see him getting recruited by Price but there's no way to know if this recruitment was years before the attack on the US government that put the Sons of Jacob in command or if it was around the time Fred and Serena had their conversation in the movie theater. The next time we see Nick, he's a driver and Gilead appears to have happened but in early stages, talking about gathering the remaining fertile women, deciding to call them Handmaid's and use the term Ceremony, Gilead crest on the lapels, commenting on the commander that helped take New York. Nick turned in the Commander who came up with the Handmaid idea to become an eye.
We only have Serena's word that he was involved. He was pretty low level when June joins the household and he wasn't an eye until after the 1st handmaid hung herself so he doesn't appear to have distinguished himself during the war. He also had zero trouble getting involved with the resistance/attempting to smuggle out June so he either had something huge to trade them or he was established as a trusted figure already. Especially given that he was able to meet up with her regularly while she was in hiding.
I don't think the Swiss woman's reaction is 100% an indicator either, they were in the middle of a powerful commanders house in the middle of enemy territory. They also quickly jumped to asking for information when interviewing June and knew Nicks full name and that he was now a commander when they interviewed her so any information that would change their mind either came from the Waterford's and isn't to be trusted or came from Nick, if Nick offered to pass information, they can't tell June that in the Winslow house and they'd have reason to want to protect their only real source of information in Gilead if that is the case.
Lots of people had to keep their heads down to survive Gilead. There's thousands of Econopeople who probably don't agree with Gilead but can't do a whole lot with people being openly shot in the streets or hanging from walls and others being tortured before execution. He might have worked with them for months or years before the takeover or maybe Price respected that punch enough to assign him as a driver instead of a soldier when the takeover happened.
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Oct 15 '22
I think the show has done an excellent job of making it clear no one is 100% good or evil, everyone made choices in order to survive. Some choices were very bad, some very good. One of the things I love about the show.
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u/stuwya Oct 14 '22
My controversial opinion is that I think if you’re going to hate Serena and have no sympathy at all for her then you need to hate nick too. So strange seeing people say nick was groomed, or brainwashed etc, but Serena who was literally a woman in Gilead doesn’t deserve any sympathy. I mean I don’t think either of them do and I think they’re both so interesting but both suck… but why is everyone so wrapped up in loving Nick and hating everyone else in Gilead?
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u/monogramchecklist Oct 14 '22
If Nick was played by a less attractive actor the sentiment around him would be different IMO. The amount it Nick & June shipping posts are very off putting.
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u/Sinnika Oct 14 '22
The notion that people only like him because of his looks is extremely offensive towards real people.
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Oct 14 '22
Agreed and also he didn't treat June all that well either if you think about it. I don't remember the details but I remember thinking, what an a**hole.
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u/QueenOfPurple Oct 14 '22
I don’t feel super strongly that Nick is a good person, rather I think his story shows how oppressive groups can recruit people who are lacking direction in their lives. In Nick’s backstory, I saw a man who had no real connections to a community, and he was given an opportunity to be part of a group. By the time he realized the evil of Gilead, he was too far into the organization and had nowhere to go if he left.