r/TheHandmaidsTale • u/TheTargaryensLawyer • 27d ago
What are your thoughts on their relationship? Question
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u/OpinionWhich 27d ago
Stockholm all the way
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u/nuckle 27d ago
Yeah. I think she needs to kill her. Bitch took her eye.
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u/Bree9ine9 27d ago
If she’d done that to June, aunt Lydia would be missing an eye long before now if not dead. I hate the way they just let this develop into some sick friendship.
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u/Ok-Raspberry-5655 27d ago
I think they have the aim of humanizing the fascists - you know, showing the banality of evil and all that. Though it’s gross, I think it’s extremely important to illustrate just how easily it is for a Lydia to turn into an Aunt Lydia.
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u/Bree9ine9 27d ago
I guess I just don’t believe that’s true. Should we humanize natzi’s? Certain people who decide to take inhumane actions and roles in such disgusting things don’t need to be seen as human, she clearly doesn’t see the woman she trains and places as human why do we need to see her that way? I say this as someone who often empathizes with people to a fault but there’s a line and once that’s lines crossed I don’t want to hear shit about how they’re also human. Maybe but they still deserve to experience the misery and torture they inflicted on others without a second thought. Aunt Lydia’s humanity is a bit useless at this point, I hope we get to see her experience some karma.
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u/LightIsMyPath 27d ago
we humanize natzi’s?
As an Italian... yes, yes we absolutely should. As long as we think only inhuman monsters are capable of certain actions our guard will br down when seemingly normal people start to take over that way.
"He was with the fascists and one day he took away my neighbours. But he was such a lovely man, we were sure that nothing bad would have happened to them if he was the one moving them" is a tell from my grandmother about how her jew neighbours disappeared, we had one "black shirter" in the village.. people were genuinely convinced it couldn't be as bad as the resistance was trying to say, because those were apparently normal people, even good people towards other villagers!!! Said neighbours of course died in the camps...
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u/Ok-Raspberry-5655 27d ago
I don’t think the goal is to humanize fascists as much as it is to show how easily it is to become one (if you’re predisposed to thinking that way, anyway). This message, to me, seems particularly relevant today with the possibility of a 2nd Trump presidency looming ever closer. Absolutely fuck Nazis and their sympathizers, but I also want to remain aware of how we progress from conservatism to Nazism. *As an aside, I apologize for the disjointedness of my thoughts - I’m having a horrible Crohn’s flare up today.
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u/Bree9ine9 27d ago
That makes sense and no need to apologize - I’m currently in bed with horrible pms and probably searching for an argument without even realizing it 😬. Hope your day gets better.
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u/Ok-Raspberry-5655 27d ago
Damn, Sis. I hope your day gets better, too. I do NOT miss that time of month.
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u/meg8278 26d ago
Yes I completely agree. Not to mention everything written in the books came from things that actually happened in history. As well as the fact that we are supposed to be learning history as to not repeat it. But that seems to be what's happening right now.
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u/Ok-Raspberry-5655 26d ago
It was already mentioned that this is why they are so hellbent on banning certain books.
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u/RikenVorkovin 27d ago
The commander in charge of Auschwitz was said to be very normal when interviewed by U.S. military personnel after capture.
The creepy thing is that many people are capable of great evils under certain parameters that otherwise may not have been if that situation wasn't presented.
Seeing some people as not human makes it seem like that normal folks can't be compelled to do such things.
That being said not long ago tons of people would put on Sunday dress and go picnic to observe public executions. So....we are a violent species and only in the last 20 years do we act absolutely shocked at that part of our natures that many continue to embrace.
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u/teen_laqweefah 27d ago
I’ve met a lot of murderers. Almost all shocked me by being so “normal”.
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u/eloquentpetrichor 26d ago
...why have you met so many?
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u/teen_laqweefah 26d ago
Weird coincidental things in regular life and a short prison term in a small states women’s prison unfortunately.
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u/Ok-Raspberry-5655 26d ago
One of the most chilling photos I’ve seen is of a group of young people celebrating the end of a grueling work week - from a concentration camp. The kids in the photo were the age my kids are now (early 20s) and it’s absofuckinglutely heart wrenching.
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u/eloquentpetrichor 26d ago
Like when Emily got her revenge on Lydia before escaping. I still kinda wish she'd killed her or at least permanently disabled her
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u/Sad-Cat8694 27d ago
Right?! When Rita turned on Serena and talked about how she was sold like her Camry, it was so satisfying. Rita played the game she had to play to survive Gilead. Serena thought that because Rita was generally agreeable and docile on the surface that it meant Rita was some sort of faithful pet servant.
I don't care if Lydia feels regret about the atrocities she carried out or approved of at the red center or during Gilead in general. She only cares about her "special favorite girls" and she did barbaric, cruel things even to them. She can burn with the rest of them, and if Janine is the one to serve her up, then that's great. Janine is doing what she's got to do to survive, and she's now feeling protective of some of the other, younger girls. She's finding her voice as a leader, when she was a follower of June for so long (and June could be so awful towards her because she was projecting about her desire to not have any weakness. So any time Janine was soft, June was triggered and got super hurtful to her, treating her like she was pathetic, dumb, and cowardly.)
My prediction is that if Janine isn't cold enough to kill Lydia for her own reasons, she'll kill her to protect other women and girls from harm. It'd actually be a really great character arc for a character we kind of all were led to assume would just get rescued by June because she couldn't do it on her own. But she's gotten braver, wiser, and tougher. It will be interesting to see if showrunners give her a victory of her own, finally out of the shadow of June.
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u/AlexBlaise 27d ago
Janine doesn’t like Lydia. Janine tries to please Lydia in order to keep her other eye, as well as other body parts, for example her right hand, her pinky, etc. Janine uses Lydia to make it easier for the handmaids. Janine is happy when she gets praise from Lydia because that means Janine’s life will be easier, if only for a short time.
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u/EsjaeW 27d ago
Janine is trying to survive
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u/mkrad13 27d ago
As is Lydia. Theyre literally all just trying to survive.
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u/No-Pumpkin3852 27d ago
She’s such an interesting character. I don’t think I’ll ever see Lydia as a survivor tho. Yes, she loves her girls in her own sick way but she also loves the power and control. Her backstory shows her internalised misogyny and self hatred.
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u/ClassAcrobatic1800 23d ago
It's in her nature to be controlling and sadistic. And Gilead allows her to be so. She will have to grow to overcome her own natural makeup ... to become the woman she has the possibility of being.
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u/RepostersAnonymous 27d ago
That’s a cop out. Lydia’s awful treatment of the girls is far out of line of “just surviving”.
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u/EsjaeW 27d ago
Lydia is thriving
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u/ClassAcrobatic1800 23d ago
Lydia has found her niche in Gilead. To become better, she will have to give that up ...
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u/Bulky-District-2757 27d ago
I think Janine is Aunt Lydia’s “success story” and that’s why she treats her differently than the other handmaids. I also think that’s why when Janine tells Aunt Lydia to change her behavior Lydia listens to her.
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u/IndependenceLegal746 27d ago
I think it’s an abusive relationship for Janine that she must keep to survive. I also think Janine is truly the only one that aunt Lydia has a soft spot for and her weakness because of it.
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u/zillabirdblue 26d ago
Lydia’s weakness is also her strength in a way too. Her breakthrough with empathy is strong.
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u/aftercloudia 27d ago
I think Lydia sees Janine as her do-over. We see what she does to the mother, Noelle, of one of her students before Gilead. Noelle was a friend and had given Lydia the confidence to get back out and date, but it went embarrassingly bad. Lydia instead of shrugging it off blamed it on Noelle and reported her to DCFS and lost custody of her kid.
Lydia sees Noelle in Janine. Before Gilead Janine was also a struggling single mom with a string of loser boyfriends. Unfortunately for Lydia she'll never be able to make up for all that she's done. She's the perfect Aunt because when she feels slighted her immediate reaction is to punish, brutally.
Lydia can't face introspection because she'll find she's just as lacking as any other human that walks this plane. So she directs it onto someone else. Noelle, Janine, the other handmaids. It's why she can't understand or handle June. Lydia can't fathom not being able to break her like she has others before. She hates June's push against order and her defiance.
Lydia hates June because she can't be her. Lydia is a coward.
The end of the last season there was a lot (still is) a loud groaning wave of not wanting a Lydia "redemption" arc but I think that's looking at it the wrong way. There is nothing Lydia, Serena Joy, Lawrence, Nick, etc could ever do to be redeemed. All that's left for them is restitution. All they can do it take the steps to right what they've destroyed.
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u/smallsloth1320 27d ago
definitely agree. she thinks she’s “fixed” Jeanine which is why she had a soft spot for her. and she can’t “fix” June so therefore she hates her
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u/Mary_Pick_A_Ford 27d ago
I got the impression that as seasons go by and while aunt Lydia is a religious gal, she understands at least internally how fucked up the whole situation is with these young women.
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u/AlexBlaise 27d ago
I also think she is absolutely shocked and disgusted by the commanders’ kinks as aunt Lydia is actually very religious.
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u/smallsloth1320 27d ago
yeah she was horrified by Putnams rape of Esther. even though the ceremony isn’t much different in her eyes one is holy and one isn’t. I think she’s surprised to learn how many Commanders aren’t “holy” like they’re supposed to be
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u/AlexBlaise 27d ago
Yeah, to normal* people there’s no difference, both is rape. But to Lydia, there’s a world of difference.
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u/eloquentpetrichor 26d ago
Tbf a good number of people seemed horrified by what he did to Esther. He saw it as "sampling the goods" (shudder) and didn't see anything wrong with it since she was slated to be his handmaid and everyone was just like... 'that isn't how it works at all'. Like even Commanders who "cheat" with their Handmaids do it more or less in secret and definitely not in the middle of a party
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u/Odd_Light_8188 27d ago
In the books she eventually starts funnelling information to Canada and the USA to take down gilead. She smuggles it out with Hannah. So she does eventually see gilead as a problem.
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u/StrikingCase9819 27d ago
I see that too. She knows the country they are living in is completely fucked up, but she truly does believe that the best life "her girls" could ever live is if they do as theyre told .
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u/BitOBunny 27d ago
I think it might be possible to have an Aunt Lydia redemption arc, out of all the characters from Gilead (Lawrence too, perhaps). I mean, it looks like they're trying it with Serena of all people, so it's not out of the question.
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u/Fine-Lady-9802 27d ago
I think at first she was grateful to not be a hand maid or Martha but as time went on she is realizing she is not saving these girls. At first she convinced herself she was doing some good. But I think she has a part to play in this final season where she switches sides at the last minute
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u/NotTheMrs 27d ago
So complicated and nuanced and interesting. Makes for EXCELLENT, complex storytelling.
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u/River_Wild98 27d ago
She didn’t seem to care much about her when she wanted the rest of the hand maids to stone her to death- or then sent her to the Colonies
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u/smallsloth1320 27d ago
I want to preface this by saying I hate Aunt Lydia and am in no way defending her BUT with that said, I think Jeanine is a sort of “success” for her in a way: produced a healthy baby girl, came back from the colonies and was able to be “redeemed”, etc. She really thinks she has helped Jeanine in a lot of ways. I think Aunt Lydia is horrible but I also think she was a bit brainwashed into thinking that Gilead would be a system that benefits everyone and Jeanine has made her realize the huge cracks in the system and the problems that have resulted from them. and Jeanine is just hella trauma bonded to Lydia- probably for her own survival. For the plot line purposes they are extremely well written and it’s interesting to see how it’ll play out
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u/BitOBunny 27d ago
It's terrible how Lydia can say that she cares for the girls and then does everything that she does. IIRC she thinks she's doing the right thing, but the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. She's an abusive manipulator and I feel no sympathy for her. In that regard though, I suppose Lydia is accurate to real life villains.
Janine has been so thoroughly traumatized that I can't really blame her for her actions. She's a broken person and even if everything were to suddenly go back to normal she would have trouble reintegrating into society. It makes sense that she would latch onto someone who treats her nicely even if it's abusive.
It's a toxic/one-sided relationship. They have their tender moments but that doesn't fix the fundamental problems with it.
It's been a while since I've last watched, correct me if I missed details
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u/anneboleynfan1 27d ago
I think Janine is doing her best to cope and survive. As far as aunt Lydia is concerned, somewhere along the way, in spite of all her abuse on Janine, Aunt Lydia got attached.
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u/SaintedStars 27d ago
I think at this point in the series, Lydia is telling herself that she loves the girls and is doing what is best for them as a coping mechanism. She doesn’t believe it but knows that if she stops, she will fall apart after everything that she’s seen. As for Janine, I wouldn’t be shocked if she dreams about Aunt Lydia winding up at the wrong end of a rope or a cattle prod.
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u/Butterballer417 ParadeofSluts 27d ago
Absolutely fascinating. A hallmark of good writing is making you feel/see contradictory or taboo things. It's uncomfortable for most people to see some characters as 3-dimensional and I think this relationship forces you to do that, without taking away from (for example) how horrible Lydia is.
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u/MissDryCunt 27d ago
Munchhausen by Proxy blended with Stockholm syndrome
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u/bloodstrkdtears 27d ago
That's an interesting take. I can 100% see Stockholm syndrome but Munchausens by proxy is when a caregiver is seeking attention by harming someone in their care... I'm just curious where you get that, because I don't see it. I'm genuinely asking (hope I'm not sounding like an asshole). I'd love to see where your head is at with that.
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u/MissDryCunt 27d ago
Well, maybe Lydia isn't trying to get attention, but Janine definitely isn't all there in the head and Lydia definitely isn't trying to make her better, and I think she gets off on keeping her in line.
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u/bloodstrkdtears 27d ago
No, that's a fair point. I guess I could see Munchausens now that I think of it... To be fair she did break Janine and then sort of basked in the glory of Janine being such a good girl
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u/Steviesteve1234 25d ago
Munchausen by proxy is faking illness to someone in your care for attention. I don’t see this as there’s nothing fake about the injuries, she’s not convincing medical staff of it and it doesn’t seem like Lydia wants attention through Janine in this form.
Stockholm definitely though. Plus Trauma bonding and survival mostly IMO.
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u/Deluxe_Stormborn 27d ago
Aunt Lydia is a torturing, evil, sadistic, narcissistic zealot. There is nothing human or good about her. Someone needs to run her over asap.
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u/Oh_Dang_Meatballs 27d ago
Janine was Aunt Lydia's first and most complete victory. She beat her down with stunning brutality right at the outset, coming at her eyeball with a melon scooper or however she did it. When Janine retreated into her childlike state to survive it all, she was Aunt Lydia's docile little doll, and she let AL keep on pretending she was protecting 'her girls' and helping them redeem themselves in service. Fuckin monster. I love how June taunted her in the torture prison about how fast Janine flipped on her. Hell yeah.
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u/Professional_Gas4506 27d ago
Aunt Lydia is a crazy twisted bitch. Too bad Emily wasn't successful in her attack! She may feel guilty for taking Janine's eye in her twisted way... She is psychotic. When they flashback to when she was a teacher, she was evil. She creeps me out! I have a hard time watching her in anything when I see her on TV. She'll always be Aunt Lydia. I supposed that's a sign of a good actor. I remember Jamie Foxx said he had to stop doing Wanda because everyone wanted him to do Wanda. Hey !!!! Wanda was the best!
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u/sweet-smart-southern 27d ago
I watched an interview with her and she is the loveliest, kindest person - just who we all need as a healthy mom relationship. It was wild to see her out of character.
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u/Goseegee 25d ago
This is the most interesting relationship on the show. The female relationships are incredibly well written. It’s impossible to look away.
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u/SuspiciousSimple 27d ago
Lydia is a closet gay and no one can change my mind. This is heavily closet queer coded it's laughable. That woman has so much self hate that when she sees the "free and wild redhead" giving into urges, it enrages Lydia because she works so hard to stay "ritious" anyone not following suit invalidates her actions.
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u/Comfortable_Sir3906 27d ago
Aunt Lydia is a mess, on some sense I believe she is pleased to ruin the women but depper as the show goes I do believe she wish she didn't have to say, and abuse the women the way she's order to.
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u/Western_Bison_878 27d ago
They are the very definition of a trauma bond. If they met in a non Gilead time, they would've had a beautiful mother-daughter type of relationship.
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u/David43432 27d ago
I really think Aunt Lydia cares about her handmaids in her own way she is true believer in both god and in gilead and believes she is saving these women from eternal damnation because of their “sinful live’s” from before. when she shocks them with cattle prods or handcuffs them to stoves and burns their arms she doesn’t see it as torture she sees in at “correcting them” as they call it
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u/Content-Method9889 27d ago
I think she loves her and there’s a mother like bond in a way but then the gilead comes out and she’s cruel again. Aunt Lydia is a very complex and conflicted character. My favorite of all the cast.
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u/DeltaDied 27d ago
Very complicated but very twisted too. It’s like Stockholm syndrome. But they really do care for each other and in all the darkness of Gilead they had moments that kinda shone through, but Lydia you should still watch your back bitch😭😭😭
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u/AssumptionAnnual5245 27d ago
So… I can absolutely see that Lydia thinks she cares for these girls. But she so toxic and has NO business being around new or expecting mothers. It’s gross to me that she seems to think she’s advocating for these women when really she’s perpetuating their slavery. And all the while hiding behind her “religion”. 🤢
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u/Quirky_Independent_2 27d ago
Stockholm. The writing on this show is so good. None of the characters are one dimensional. You go from hating them, to pitying them, to rooting for them. Round and round it goes. Any modicum of humanity that still exists within Lydia comes out with Janine… sometimes. I think she feels guilt for that mother she lashed out on in her origin story. She reminded me of Janine. Looking out for Janine is her way of making amends. She often fails at this and her need to protect her reputation in gilead makes her pretty ruthless. I love Janine and I wish she could get out once and for all.
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u/theangryprof 27d ago
Creepy AF. Lydia has actually drunk the kool aid and believes in Gilead and all it stands for. At the same time, she tries so hard to make sure June and the other Handmaid's don't end up on the wall. In her twisted worldview she cares about June and the others.
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u/B_vibrant 27d ago
At first Lydia manipulated and abused her into being her pupil but over time Lydia grew a soft spot for her
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u/Glum_Giraffe3033 26d ago
Lydia was extremely radicalized and brainwashed at first, as more corrupt things happen she sympathizes with Janine and is starting to understand the immense error of her ways.
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u/Upper-Flamingo1746 26d ago
I think Lydia uses Janine as a scape goat for her to field off her evil dead’s. With Janine in her “care”, it presents her with the opportunity to dilute responsibility and accountability for her nasty approach to the same women she entered into this demented society with.
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u/Upbeat-Loss-1382 26d ago
It's a twisted mother daughter substitute relationship in an effed up world.
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u/Inevitable_Nerve_925 26d ago
Lydia has some maternal and even matriarchal behaviors. I really want to believe Lydia is coming to terms with the hypocrisy of the patriarchy of Gilead.
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u/breastfedbymymother 23d ago
Aunt Lydia, they could never make me hate you. I want to. But I just can't
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u/Alohabailey_00 27d ago
I think Lydia really cares for her in her own sick and twisted way.