r/Invincible • u/mwthecool Omni-Mod • Nov 17 '23

Invincible [Episode Discussion] - S02E03 - This Missive, This Machination! EPISODE DISCUSSION

Episode 3 - This Missive, This Machination!

Mark starts his college career, Debbie struggles with personal trauma, and Allen the Alien returns home to find a new threat facing the Coalition of Planets.

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696

u/raknor88 Show Fan Nov 17 '23

It's an illogical argument. The dude is thousands of years old. He'd be too old for anyone. The real argument should be the fact that he's her boss.

She gave him a stupid reason for an illogical question.

463

u/KEVLAR60442 Nov 17 '23

The age thing was a stupid reason, but her real reason, wherein Immortal is the only one who's experienced the pain of death as much as Kate has, is actually a damn good reason.

187

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23 edited Nov 17 '23

Yeah it's obvious that she's being facetious about the age thing. I felt reddit has been going a bit downhill lately but seeing so many people who didn't cop that is still quite surprising.

45

u/MegaBaumTV Nov 18 '23

Yeah it's obvious that she's being facetious about the age thing.

Just like she didnt actually care about professionalism in the work place when Rex encountered her at the showers. I swear to god, theres probably people on reddit asking why we didnt see any asteroids on the purple planet.

5

u/Shantotto11 Nov 20 '23

Okay, but why didn’t we see asteroids on that planet? /s

22

u/22bebo Nov 18 '23

It's totally anecdotal, but it has felt like since the blackout earlier this year Reddit has been... Worse. In a number of ways, though most noticeably it has felt a little more negative. I would be interested in seeing if the general tone of comments and posts has noticeably changed across the board since then or if it is just confirmation bias on my part (which it probably is).

3

u/watashi_ga_kita Nov 20 '23

Some users actually left, moderation has gone down in quality, there have been more bots and such, and all of this has also affected current users. It's not just you feeling like reddit has become worse.

5

u/KBSinclair Doc Seismic Nov 18 '23

You're surprised by that? After the massive overreaction and misunderstanding people had and still have about Amber from last season? Despite having two other characters on screen explain what Mark did wrong? It doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

3

u/Spider-Man-fan Nov 18 '23

To be clear, what he did wrong was be in a relationship with Amber in the first place, correct?

5

u/KBSinclair Doc Seismic Nov 19 '23

No. What he did wrong was stay in one while not telling her he was a superhero. He either should've broken up with her once he realized Superheroing would always take precedence over any commitment he made to her, or he should've told her, and let her make the choice to date a superhero or not. Making her figure it out on her own after months of making promises and lying to her were his major fuck ups.

5

u/Cats_Cameras Nov 19 '23

Hard disagree. His identity is his family's safety, and even the best-intentioned teens can struggle to hold a secret.

3

u/KBSinclair Doc Seismic Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23

His identity is his family's safety

His family is Omni-Man and his mom. Not to mention how they're monitored and protected by the gov't and Cecil. Even under the possibility of a reveal, they'd be fine.

best-intentioned teens can struggle to hold a secret.

Who's pressing her on it, and who would she want to even tell? Superheroes are pretty damn common place. Did you not see their reaction to Eve? Despite her power and being connected to the new Guardians of the Globe, no one gave a shit. And at that point, even less people know or care about Invincible in particular. He's a nobody. How would it service Amber to tell anyone about him in any regard? There's no reason for him not to trust Amber, or at least to show that he has abilities and is a superhero, even if he didn't say which one in particular.

And let's just say all that doesn't matter and Mark had to keep the secret. Ok, then he's still a piece of shit for lying to Amber and not breaking up with her if he couldn't balance a relationship and his superhero duties. Something he should've understood from leaving her in his room for hours to deal with a crisis. He should've recognized that would be the standard and she didn't deserve that. He had from that moment to the time they visited the college to come to that conclusion, yet he never did. That's a failure on his part.

4

u/Cats_Cameras Nov 19 '23

All it takes is one nutter to kill his mom. We saw in-universe (with the intact Guardians) that the White House itself can be attacked and broken by random supervillains, let alone one random suburban mom.

If you spend any time with teens as an adult, you know that their secrets rapidly bounce all over, because poor impulse control and fluid relationships. Is it possible that Amber is absolutely someone that can be trusted with his identity? Maybe, but he wouldn't know after dating her for a few months. And that's without a breakup or other jilting.

Mark's not a "piece of shit" for trying to juggle his responsibilities with a relationship. Just an inexperienced teen dealing with much greater pressures than the usual. We've all flubbed relationships along the way as we grow. It's fine for Mark to be "human" and it's fine for Amber to want more and break up with him.

1

u/KBSinclair Doc Seismic Nov 19 '23

One nutter

Not with the dudes Cecil employs to surveil the family, nor with Omni-Man around her a great deal of the deal and able to get to her easily.

the White House itself can be attacked and broken by random supervillains

  1. That was a comic story.

  2. The Maulers may be a bit narrow minded, but they're absolutely not random villains.

because poor impulse control and fluid relationships

Again, who would she tell, and how would it service her to any degree. This is not real life, this is a fictional world where super humans are comm place, and a guy like Invincible is small potatoes. No one she would even tell us a threat. Trying to go on the internet with it would be a massive nothing burger that would either be ignored or swept up by Cecil.

Mark's not a "piece of shit" for trying to juggle his responsibilities with a relationship

Yes he is, because he saw very plainly that juggling wouldn't happen at all. He'd always, always, put Amber on hold when he got the call, and he didn't have the balls to either drop the relationship or tell her why that was. That's piece of shit boyfriend behavior.

If this is all you've got, I'm done wasting my time with you.

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4

u/Spider-Man-fan Nov 19 '23

True, but you agree that Amber wasn’t completely faultless in the whole thing either, right? And sounds like she figured it out pretty quickly.

2

u/KBSinclair Doc Seismic Nov 19 '23

True, but you agree that Amber wasn’t completely faultless in the whole thing either, right?

No, I don't. Mark was the one lying. He should've been the one to come forward with the truth instead of stringing her along, making promises and letting her down without telling her the truth.

And sounds like she figured it out pretty quickly.

We don't know for sure when she did, but whenever that was doesn't justify Mark's continued behavior. Again, the impetus was on him to either break up with her or give her the choice to date a superhero or not. Doing neither makes him the asshole.

6

u/Spider-Man-fan Nov 19 '23

But Amber was lying to him to about knowing he was Invincible. You don’t think that was wrong of her?

2

u/KBSinclair Doc Seismic Nov 19 '23 edited Nov 19 '23

When? After they broke up, you think she was lying to hide her shock or something?

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2

u/KR5shin8Stark Nov 19 '23

I think it's just virtue signaling. They only act offended or "morally appalled" just to get other people riled up. At this point I wouldn't take anyone making some moral standing over fictional stories seriously.

1

u/RhysieB27 Nov 23 '23

I felt reddit has been going a bit downhill lately

God, I'm glad it's not just me. I've only been back a week after quitting during the blackouts and since coming back it feels like everyone is a 12yo boy. Especially the people on r/AskReddit, TIFU etc.

1

u/Aiyon Nov 25 '23

I mean this in on par with the Amber hate train because of people not being able to understand that she was mad about him lying to her, not about him being a hero

26

u/Neversoft4long Nov 17 '23

Yeah that actually made me do a 180 on her instantly. Bonding over trauma like that is a real thing. Not too mention immortal is hot so it’s not too hard to fall for him like Kate did

2

u/Gathorall Nov 17 '23 edited Nov 18 '23

As much? Like how old is immortal? Or does it even matter? When did other superpowered beings appear anyway? Because from what we see humans have had even a small practical chance of killing him (unless he lets them) for 200 years or so, wouldn't he have died a lot less?

2

u/cancerinos Nov 18 '23

Nothing is a good reason to be dishonest with other people. She was dating a dude, then cheated with a new guy and decided it was ok, because the thing before wasn't dating she decided. Which she never asked, if he was ok with a friends with benefits thing.

9

u/Spider-Man-fan Nov 18 '23

I never ever really got the impression that Rex and Kate were dating. Just seemed like they were just hooking up.

4

u/GrannyVhagar Nov 19 '23

He was still with Atom Eve, unbeknownst to her, and slept with her anyway. What about that would make her judge anything in their relationship as serious going forward?

0

u/cancerinos Nov 20 '23

Two wrongs don't make a right.

1

u/tbinrbrich Nov 20 '23

Yeah, probably should've gone with that- the age thing was dumb

1

u/[deleted] Nov 20 '23

not really, the guy may have gotten pieced up by nolan but vs anything else on the planet accept maybe humans using technology in the present he would have had no threats to his life even if he could be killed.

-24

u/2SP00KY4ME Nov 17 '23

But she hasn't. She doesn't know what it's like to die, only the copies that never merged back with her have truly died. Her consciousness is one where she's never truly ceased to exist. She's never fully lost, and had everyone around her die, like Immortal has.

41

u/Reggiardito Nov 17 '23

When the immortal was fucking one of them, another clone felt the sensation. I think it's obvious that when one of them dies, the original feels something as well

3

u/Spider-Man-fan Nov 18 '23

Very good point

1

u/2SP00KY4ME Nov 20 '23

Actually, that's a fair observation. Okay, I'll give her some more credit. Still, my point was that living 2000 years is also about the disconnection you gain from the world around you. Any family you could ever create would feel more like a pet when you've lived through 20x their lifespan and know you'll outlive them too.

25

u/Muaddib223 Nov 17 '23

I mean her powers don't exist so there are no objective rules to how they work. She's saying she knows what it's like to die so idk, we just have to accept it as the show's logic.

17

u/Locem Nov 17 '23

She feels and experiences each death of her alternates.

13

u/hyzmarca Nov 17 '23

She's got a hive mind thing going on. Every Kate feels what all the other Kates are feeling in real time (demonstrated when one Kate has an orgasm because another Kate is having sex). When one Kate orgasms, every Kate feels that orgasm. So when one Kate dies, all the other Kates feel that death.

Which yeah, is pretty grim when you think about it. Kate has died thousands of times. She spawns sacrificial copies as a combat tactic.

3

u/zauraz Nov 18 '23

In the first season she said they where all her.

And we clearly see her feeling what is going on in the shower when talking to Rex.

Visual cues heavily imply she does feel her duplicates

119

u/Any-Zookeepergame137 Nov 17 '23

It feels like they want to give the female characters more depth than they had in the comics but their depth just makes them come across like assholes

167

u/Vlitzen Nov 17 '23

Being wrong doesn't make you an asshole lol, Kate seems fine

5

u/cancerinos Nov 18 '23

Cheating on someone makes you an asshole, So now they're both assholes.

26

u/[deleted] Nov 18 '23

Seems pretty clear they weren't a thing, only Rex thought so

-6

u/Joeybfast Nov 18 '23

Naw they were thing. She would not have wanted to talk about things if it was just fling .

11

u/sGvDaemon Nov 19 '23

No evidence they were a thing, having sex doesn't make you a couple. It seemed like Rex wanted more (especially after Eve leaving him) but Kate was not interested

1

u/AgilePickle745 Nov 22 '23

Not communicating that still makes her kinda an asshole though

6

u/elizabnthe Nov 18 '23

She didn't want to talk though.

2

u/Joeybfast Nov 18 '23

She forced the conversation in the gym .

3

u/mikey_lolz Nov 18 '23

Yeah, because they're coworkers and will continue to be coworkers for a while. Unresolved tension like that ruins morale, regardless of whose fault it is. Whether she's a good person or not, or was coupled with Rex or not, are seperate from her wanting to initiate that conversation.

Should she have done what she did without talking to Rex first? No. But she's barely an adult and is also deeply traumatised. She couldn't imagine Rex being that invested given what happened between them and Eve, and perhaps that speaks to her own self-worth, too. The topic is pretty nuanced, given how little time we spend on it.

6

u/shammylol Nov 20 '23

They weren’t dating, Rex cheated on Eve with Kate, Kate thought they broke up and she was upset with Rex afterwards.

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u/Sahm_1982 Nov 21 '23

She slept with someone in a relationship. Then cheated on him, with her boss.

You not thinking she's an asshole shows a lot about your character lol

2

u/AlishanTearese Nov 23 '23

Kate didn't realize Rex and Eve were still together. Rex fed her some line about Eve getting together with Mark.

3

u/Sahm_1982 Nov 23 '23

And she didn't even bother to check.

And then she slept with her boss, while being with rex.

Like, at VERY best interpretation she's kinda a hoe. Really she feels like a cheater

25

u/Poniibeatnik Atom Eve Nov 17 '23

Nah Kate's wrong but she's not an asshole.

15

u/Reddragon351 Nov 17 '23

I mean I would argue they have given a lot of them more depth, and even works well with some of them, like Eve and Debbie, the problem is whenever they're try to be subversive or explain away something like Amber last season or the justification for Kate this season it comes off as really dumb.

10

u/Effective-Handle9983 Rex Splode Nov 17 '23

Kate was already an asshole in the comic

1

u/Reddragon351 Nov 17 '23

yeah everyone kind of was

5

u/Chagdoo Donald Ferguson Nov 17 '23

What's wrong with a deep asshole?

4

u/zauraz Nov 18 '23

I mean. Rex is an ass. He was already cheating and said his relationship with Duplicate meant nothing when talking to Eve. I can't really say she is being an "ass"

2

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

5

u/BardtheGM Nov 17 '23

Dude, you're not supposed to post comic spoilers in this thread at all. What a fucking asshole.

"DO NOT post comic book spoilers in this thread - use the comic spoiler discussion thread for discussion using comic book context"

2

u/Best-Dragonfruit-292 Machine Head Nov 17 '23

That's been my problem with HoD.

2

u/wispymatrias Nov 18 '23

She is an asshole. Assholes can have depth.

Comic readers know it's a merry-go-round of pricks with the new Guardians.

15

u/Negativety101 Nov 17 '23

So thousands of years old people can't ever date?

45

u/raknor88 Show Fan Nov 17 '23

The age thing doesn't bother me since he's older than pretty much anyone on the planet. But a boss openly dating a subordinate should be an issue.

But in a way I almost understand why he would start dating in the 20s range. He's looking at who know how many hundreds to thousands of years more to his life. If you're looking for a partner, start the relationship early so then you have more time with them.

16

u/ikarikh Nov 17 '23

Honestly, if you lived thousands of years, you'd have spent only the past 100 years or less dealing with age being a social stigma for dating.

On top of that, even if you started your thousand years off worrying about social stigma, by the time you're 1,000 you honestly wouldn't give a shit anymore because you've already been alive for hundreds of years before the person you're screwing was ever born. Why would you feel weird about a perceived 20-30 year age gap visually?

At his age, all he is honestly going to care about is screwing a hot person in their sexual prime.

Dating a 60 year old would still be just as weird as a 20 year old, considering he's still 900+ years older than both. So physical beauty and sexual peak would be the thing he cared about. Aka screwing 20 year olds.

10

u/Negativety101 Nov 17 '23

I'd imagine that my parents having a 20 year age difference would be seen differently now than it was in the 1970's.

Course by the time you are thousands of years old, you've probably seen so many social changes just come and go you don't care anymore.

5

u/2SP00KY4ME Nov 17 '23

The issue with boss-subordinate relationships is that they represent an uneven balance of power in the relationship. It's not a matter of social stigma to date your boss, it's that he controls your career, for better (over more deserving others) if you please him, or for worse if you don't. That's why it's considered wrong.

2

u/Soul699 Nov 17 '23

By the same logic celebrities and politicians shouldn't date anyone else but those who have the same job as them.

1

u/2SP00KY4ME Nov 20 '23

I'm not sure why you think that's by my logic, because being a politician or a celebrity is not the same as literally being their actual boss in their job.

0

u/Soul699 Nov 20 '23

Because they still hold as much if not more power as being your boss.

0

u/Geno0wl Nov 20 '23

Celebrities hold more "soft power" compared to a direct supervisor. AKA they can influence your life but not like ruin their career on a whim.

Politicians don't directly influence individual people like that either(unless it is something like handing a big contract to their business). most countries don't run dictatorships like that. Like I am unsure what you think the President would do to harm their spouse let alone like a state senator.

0

u/Soul699 Nov 20 '23

They can hire people to mess your life up and or fabricate things to say against you.

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u/Cloudhwk Nov 17 '23

Maturity is a big thing, people in their 20’s are usually still developing their brains

Honestly immortal is engaging in lowkey grooming behaviour here

5

u/ikarikh Nov 17 '23

Again, you're seeing it from a social view as a person in the current gen or society.

To a guy who is 1000 years old, a 60 year old woman is as much a baby to him as a 20 year old.

The great majority of the first 900 years of his life, there was no social stigma on age. There wasn't even age of consent.

And most people didn't even live passed 30 or 40 if they were lucky.

All the stigma you're judging him on was only brought about over the past millenia which is a mere fraction of his existence.

To him, all he is interested in is screwing a hot girl in her prime. The age is irrelevant to a 1000 year old guy. Because part of the stigma is about someone being 20-30 years older than someone and them not being equally mature to each other.

Immortal is literally 900+ years older than ANY woman he gets with. There isn't a single woman who matches his collective maturity from dozens of LIFETIMES of experience.

Do you think he really cares at this point if someone thinks he's too "old" to fuck kate?

She's "legal" and consenting. That's about all he cares about. There's zero reason for him to care to aim for a 30+ girl. To him, they aren't any different than the 20 year old. They're all still "young" to him.

1

u/Tesser4ct Nov 18 '23

Yeah he likes hot babes like any straight guy. It's pretty simple lol.

4

u/raknor88 Show Fan Nov 17 '23

What you're forgetting to take into account is that she is much more mature than a regular person of her age. She's a superhero that's been in many many fights the last few years and since her only super power is to clone herself her clones have a high dependency to die. So there's a decent chance that she feels herself die dozens of times throughout a fight. That sort of thing tends to mature someone real fast.

She's seen a lot of ugly shit and knows just what she's getting herslef into.

-1

u/Cloudhwk Nov 17 '23

Dating a dude who can’t die screams PTSD

7

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

First you accused Immortal of grooming her.

Now she went for him because she has PTSD.

I wonder what you will say next to defend current day's stigma.

0

u/Cloudhwk Nov 17 '23

Both can be happening and truthful at once, it’s called nuance

1

u/[deleted] Nov 17 '23

Yes, they can. But you only mentioned one because your argument about the other didn't hold.

3

u/downvotetheboy Nov 17 '23

grooming in what way ?

3

u/Cloudhwk Nov 17 '23

He is significantly older and in a position of power to her, I have no idea how you can’t see the grooming here

4

u/downvotetheboy Nov 17 '23 edited Nov 17 '23

yeah but you’re looking at it from a real world POV. he’s significantly older than everyone, so you’re essentially saying he’s grooming anyone he dates.

he is in a position of power, but i wouldn’t say it’s grooming, but rather an abuse of power.

-4

u/2-2Distracted Nov 17 '23

This is reddit dude, people love to ignore what grooming is unless it fits the textbook definition to the absolute T.

1

u/downvotetheboy Nov 17 '23

it’s a superpower tv show. applying real world logic doesn’t make sense…

her age is ambiguous, but it seems like she’s an adult.

0

u/Cloudhwk Nov 17 '23

I also suspect it’s cause he is hot and basically having implied orgies with Kate

2

u/GameConsideration Nov 17 '23

Grooming would be if he met her while she was underage, took a position of trust, and guided her towards doing sexual favors later in life. That is what makes grooming so heinous.

He met her as an adult. Chill.

1

u/GameConsideration Nov 17 '23

Is he the boss? I thought he was just the leader of the team. Rudy was interested in Monster Girl before he lost leadership.

Also Robin from Teen Titans is the leader, and he loved Starfire.

10

u/OneGoodRib Nov 17 '23

Yeah I saw people last week being like "the age gap is problematic" but like... the dude is 2000 years old. Is he only supposed to date people who are 1007 years or older? Him being her boss is the actual problem.

7

u/KaleidoscopeLeft5511 Nov 17 '23

1007 years or older

Half his age plus 7. Underrated comment!

6

u/Locem Nov 17 '23

I think the take away is supposed to be that Immortal is not a good leader.

Kate absolutely has a point about the constant experiencing of death thing, though.

4

u/Cloudhwk Nov 17 '23

He is too old for someone so young though, if Immortal was dating a 35 year old it might make more sense

Hell people judge relationships with massive age gaps with far less of a gap than immortal and Kate

3

u/Bbgirl4lato Nov 17 '23

It's weird but it's happening. Immortal also has had no screentime unless he's being murdered (nothing on how it's affected him except a reference by Kate) he just seems like a cold douchebag who's now effing his mentee/subordinate

2

u/tayroarsmash Nov 17 '23

There is no one who has been real with more of an age gap than immortal and Kate. If we’re thinking in age gaps he just shouldn’t date anyone at all. I suspect you can’t apply conventional morality to an immortal man when considering the ethics of his dating life.

2

u/TobioOkuma1 Nov 17 '23

I don't really think that was particularly the argument. I mean that line was dumb, but immortal understanding death is genuinely a good reason imo.

0

u/Effective-Handle9983 Rex Splode Nov 17 '23

And she’s only 18, it’s not just the age gap, it’s the fact she’s just so young

0

u/Sahm_1982 Nov 21 '23

Even if he was 40 he was too old for her.

She's just a hoe lol