r/Conservative • u/[deleted] • 2d ago
Poll: Joe Biden 7 Times More Popular with Ukrainians than Donald Trump Flaired Users Only
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u/woailyx Conservative 2d ago
Too bad Ukraine doesn't have elections anymore
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u/eldudelio Conservative 2d ago
didnt they also lock up opposing parties too?
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u/pimanac not a biologist 2d ago
ssssssssshhhhhhhh we're "defending democracy" over there.
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u/Outside_Ad_3888 Moderate Conservative 1d ago
they are indeed a flawed democracy according to Democracy index, not a shining beacon of democracy by any measure, but also far better then the alternative, Russia, by every measure
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u/SauxinMikey Texas Conservative 2d ago
They arrested leaders of a small pro-Russia party that had ties to Putin and eventually fled to Russia. Pretty reasonable to arrest people comitting treason.
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u/Outside_Ad_3888 Moderate Conservative 1d ago
I don't agree with that decision but would like to note that it was minority parties whose members were favourable to Russia and were used as puppett governors in the occupied regions. Condemnation must be fair, with all data on the floor
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u/jub-jub-bird Conservative 1d ago
Not really. The major opposition parties and leaders are perfectly fine. The only ones locked up were literally and openly on the side of an invading enemy.
This is a bit like complaining that Norway locked up Quisling, the French locked up Pétain, or the exile of Benedict Arnold.
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u/ValuesHappening Constitutionalist 2d ago
What would you have them do, amend their constitution while 1/3 of the nation is occupied and like 20% of their populace is out of reach, or violate their constitution?
I'm just asking because I'm trying to figure out why so many so-called conservatives appear to enjoy wiping their ass with the Ukrainian constitution as much as our leftists enjoy wiping their asses with ours.
I'll at least give you credit that "our side's" constitutional ass-wipers are respectful enough to do it to another country's constitution, though, I guess.
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u/KinGpiNdaGreat Populist 2d ago
Even the United States held an election during the American Civil War in the states that were still part of the Union after 1/3rd of its population was separated and it lost half the size of its territory to the Confederacy.
Which was a far more bloodier and divisive war than the current war in Ukraine.
Just because you can suspend elections and your democracy to turn your nation into a dictatorship because your constitution says you can doesnt change the fact you’ve still turned your nation into a dictatorship and maybe that’s not a good thing because now the people don’t have a voice.
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u/Outside_Ad_3888 Moderate Conservative 1d ago
and England didn't. That election you mention was a nice gesture, but absolutely not an accurate corrispondent to what the total US population wanted at the moment.
Why should Ukraine do mock elections with abyssimal turnout of fear of drones and bombs when polls show the majority of Ukrainians want to postpone elections? Just as a pubblicity stunt for western allies?
Did England become a dictatorship because they suspended those elections? No, and there is no sign Ukraine has or will be.
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u/ValuesHappening Constitutionalist 1d ago
None of what you just said matters because ultimately it isn't about whether England didn't do or the US did do or whether the US did so successfully or whether it was unrepresentative.
Zelensky cannot do it. He does not have the constitutional power to do it. It cannot be done. He cannot legally host elections in Ukraine any more than Biden can legally take our guns.
There's nothing else that needs to be said. I understand you're saying that it'd be a bad idea, and I agree with you, but frankly it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if an election would be a good idea. It doesn't matter if other countries have done it and succeeded. Zelensky cannot legally begin an election in Ukraine any more than I can legally begin an election in the USA. He does not have the right. The constitution is above the president.
Conservatives know this.
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u/ValuesHappening Constitutionalist 1d ago
Even the United States held an election during the American Civil War in the states that were still part of the Union after 1/3rd of its population was separated and it lost half the size of its territory to the Confederacy.
OK but... That's the United States, which has a different constitution.
Do you support the left taking our guns away? Probably not, right? Because of the second amendment? But what if I told you "Yeah but in <some other country> they took their guns!" Would that be a good argument? No, obviously, because they didn't have our second amendment, and we do. Therefore, they weren't protected by our 2A, but we are.
You following?
Ukraine has a constitution that says no elections right now. The fact that the US constitution doesn't prohibit us from having an election during wartime is irrelevant. That's our constitution. They have their own.
If you have a problem with their constitution, that's totally fine. Maybe they have a way to amend it later on after war. I'm not sure.
But Zelensky can't go against their constitution any more than Biden can take our guns.
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u/Minimum-Enthusiasm14 Conservative 2d ago
Yeah. Too bad Russia made that impossible for them. If only Russia stopped its invasion and went away.
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u/Outside_Ad_3888 Moderate Conservative 1d ago
As written in their own constitution in time of need, with noteworthy precedents such as England in ww2. Plus the impossibility of doing a fair election with the soldiers at the front, the emigration and the Russian missile and drone strikes.
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u/longshanks44 Red Voter in a Blue State 2d ago
Good for Ukraine. Meanwhile, this American citizen will be voting for the guy who cares more about America than Ukraine.
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u/Diligent_Emphasis_20 Conservative 2d ago
If Biden gave me hundreds of billions for free, absolutely I’d vote for him
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u/CookingUpChicken Millennial Conservative 2d ago
We do have 1,000 trillionaires that can help pay for it
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u/Blahblahnownow Fiscal Conservative 1d ago
The way inflation is headed, we will have 1000 trillionaires soon
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u/acreekofsoap No step on snek 2d ago
Which Ukrainians? The ones partying in Kiev? Or the poor villagers being sent to fight on the front lines?
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u/FellowConservative2 Reagan Conservative 2d ago
You know how I know you’re full of it? The way you spell Kyiv. You either are too ignorant to know that “Kiev” is the Russian way to spell it or you believe that it should be a part of Russia. Almost no one except Russian propagandists spell it as “Kiev” nowadays. It’s actually a great way to catch Russian trolls. There’s two things they can’t do:
1) spell Kyiv as “Kyiv” 2) criticize putin
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u/ValuesHappening Constitutionalist 2d ago
I support Ukraine and I would also spell it Kyiv but I think you're full of crap with this argument.
What makes you better than a "I cannot define a woman because I am not a biologist" leftist now?
I rue the day the Right begins respellings, redefinings, and thoughtcrimings like the Left. There will be no party left for those among us who just refuse to accept propaganda-forced linguistical evolution.
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u/AtomicFox84 Conservative 2d ago
Ive only seen it as kiev. Im sure its the same for many others. One spelling tends to be the one most used, esp by those not from there.
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u/acreekofsoap No step on snek 2d ago
Whatever you say, “fellow conservative”. There are multiple news outlets that spell it “Kiev”. Here are a few
https://www.yahoo.com/news/hungarian-premier-orb-n-visits-161351834.html
https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/274434644/us-diplomat-found-dead-in-kiev-media
Also I didn’t mention Putin once, that’s on you. Perhaps the mods should change your flair to “Bill Kristol Conservative”
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u/FellowConservative2 Reagan Conservative 2d ago
The yahoo source is originally from DPA, a German newspaper, which still spells it as Kiev in German.
The second source is a Pakistani newspaper? It has a .pk domain name...
The "Big News Network" source...and you can't make this up...is from RT, or Russia Today. Bro, you literally just cited a literal russian propaganda newstory to prove my point. Just check under the headline where the original story comes from...
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u/acreekofsoap No step on snek 2d ago edited 2d ago
Just take the “L” bro, spelling it “Kiev” as countless sources have both before and after this war does not make anyone ignorant or a Russian troll. But here is your previous New York Times spelling it Kiev
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/21/sports/soccer/champions-league-liverpool-real-madrid.html
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u/FellowConservative2 Reagan Conservative 2d ago
Check the date. The article is from before the full scale invasion. Hence the “nowadays” in my original response. Keep trying though. I’ll wait.
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u/xcy9 Conservative 2d ago
So you just admitted it’s about virtue signaling over the war. Same kind of performative nonsense as spelling Russia as “russia” with a lower case r. A war shouldn’t change the correct way to spell a city’s name lol.
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u/FellowConservative2 Reagan Conservative 1d ago
And therein lies the rub: what is the correct way to spell a city's name? You defer to that nation. Ukrainians have made it clear the correct way to spell it is "Kyiv." Spelling it incorrectly (the Russian way) either shows that someone didn't get the memo or literally believes Kyiv should be a Russian city.
The thing is that it is not like Ukrainians just came up with Kyiv to spite Russians. Kyiv is the Ukrainian spelling and Kiev is the Russian spelling. "Kyiv" has been the official spelling for some time now, but when Ukrainian and Russian were use interchangeably, people would spell it both ways. Since the invasion, Ukrainians have overwhelmingly began to eschew the language of the invader and switched over to Ukrainian. As such, Kyiv vs. Kiev became a point of contention, a very notable one that anyone who even remotely follows the conflict is well aware of.
Spelling "Russia" with a lower-case "r" is a bit different. It is not virtue signaling as much as it is difficult for some who has a personal connection to write words like that. The closest example I can give is what happened in the US during WWI and WWII. People stopped saying many German words because saying the words of the invader that was killing thousands of Americans made them uncomfortable. For example, Sauerkraut was often times referred to "liberty cabbage." Some Americans with German heritage even switch their names from Schmidt to Smith. I don't think that was virtue signaling as much as people just genuinely not wanting to say German words during a war with Germany.
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u/Minimum-Enthusiasm14 Conservative 2d ago
Yeah. The one thing that makes me not the biggest trump fan is his hesitation to fund Ukraine. The war in Ukraine and a Ukrainian victory is a vital US national interest and seemingly the only way of preventing WW3.
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u/sfbruin California Conservative 2d ago
It's alarming how many posters here don't seem to understand the concept of foreign policy
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u/Robin-Lewter Conservative 2d ago
It's alarming how many people seem to think Ukraine can win this war
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u/Independent-Mix-5796 2A 2d ago
Looks at Vietnam
Looks at Afghanistan
I don’t see wh Ukraine can’t.
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u/Robin-Lewter Conservative 8h ago
Because unlike those conflicts Russia views this as a live or die conflict. We never did in either.
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u/CookingUpChicken Millennial Conservative 2d ago
It's alarming how many people seem to think Ukraine winning is thought of as them marching into the Red Square and conquering the world.
Ukraine winning = Ukraine even existing
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u/FellowConservative2 Reagan Conservative 2d ago
Most Ukrainians feel like they’ve already defied the odds and, if the war were to end today, they’d consider a win (ei winter war)
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u/Minimum-Enthusiasm14 Conservative 2d ago
Pretty sure the Finnish didn’t like the results of the winter war, having to give up parts of their territory. Hence why they joined the Nazis when they invaded the USSR a couple years later.
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u/FellowConservative2 Reagan Conservative 2d ago
The Finns, of course, didn’t like being invaded and wanted the parts that were taken back, but the odds they faced were overwhelming and being able to continue existing with 80% of their nation intact is a big win.
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u/Minimum-Enthusiasm14 Conservative 2d ago
It’s a big win, yes, but at the same time is would have been preferable for them to get all of their land back. Ukraine still surviving is definitely a victory, but that doesn’t mean they should just take the survival win and not continue fighting until they get back all of their territory. Unlike Finland, they have allies that are seemingly willing to stick with them until they kick Russia out of their country completely.
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u/Outside_Ad_3888 Moderate Conservative 1d ago
not the only way, but definitely has consequences on US foreign policy in the future
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u/Minimum-Enthusiasm14 Conservative 1d ago
We as a country could also just roll over and die to prevent WW3, I suppose, but I’d prefer the exact opposite of that.
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u/Fairwareprovidence Conservative 2d ago edited 2d ago
Ukraine ain't gonna win if all we give them is money and guns.
If we give them more than money and guns, ww3 is happening.
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u/FellowConservative2 Reagan Conservative 2d ago
They’ve already basically stopped the Russian invasion. What progress has Russia made in last 2 years?
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u/aught_one Don't Tread on Me 2d ago
Ukraine can't win. Paddington Bear should have sued for peace months ago.
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u/FellowConservative2 Reagan Conservative 2d ago
Ukraine has liberated 50% of occupied territory since mid-2022. They’ve already won. It’s just a question of how embarrassing a loss this will be for Putin, unless we cut Ukrainian aid.
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u/aught_one Don't Tread on Me 2d ago
if they've already won why do they need more US tax dollars?
the annexed territories are not going to be ukrainian again. the best deal ukraine is going to get is give up the 3 annexed territories in exchange for cessation of hostilities.
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u/FellowConservative2 Reagan Conservative 2d ago
Well, first, Russia annexed four regions, not three.
Second, they annexed the entirety of those four regions, none of them that they fully control.
Third, yes, Ukraine could still lose if we cut off aid to them. If the war to end today, most Ukrainians would consider that a win and I think the int'l community would consider putin's war to be a colossal mistake. Again, see the Winter War where the USSR took some of Finland's territory but most historians would call that Finish victory because they staved off a Soviet invasion.
Just curious, do you also support cutting off aid to Israel in the midst of their war with Hamas and Hezbollah and, to a lesser extent, Iran?
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u/icemichael- Conservative Nationalist 2d ago
Well, duh, he gives them our money
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u/FellowConservative2 Reagan Conservative 2d ago
We give them weapons to decimate Chinas and Iran’s biggest ally that is intent on destroying us and the West. Thank God Reagan ain’t alive to see this
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u/Hplayer18 Reagan Conservative 2d ago
We are emptying out old storehouses for the most part with stuff from the 80s, designed to fight the Soviets...and replacing it with new tech. Literally the cheapest war we've never had to fight and it's not even costing us American lives, just old equipment that turns out kicks Soviet equipment's ass
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u/Robin-Lewter Conservative 2d ago
This isn't true in the slightest and you know that.
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u/FellowConservative2 Reagan Conservative 2d ago
There’s a lot of truth to that and you know thst
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u/EntranceCrazy918 American Conservative 1d ago
Lol, so why has Russian completely taken over all of eastern Ukraine? We winning now?
Ukraine's male population has plummeted. Are we winning now that our ally will have an existential population crisis for the next 2 generations?
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u/ValuesHappening Constitutionalist 2d ago
Look, I support Ukraine in this matter entirely but this is such bullshit. First of all, what, do you think we have INFINITE amounts of old crap in warehouses? This war has been going on for 2.5 YEARS now homie we don't continue having crap in warehouses.
Second of all, to head off any kind of "Well we send them money that they use to buy crap from the MIC" arguments - fuck that. That just means we're funneling taxpayer dollars to the MIC. That argument is up there in terms of economic illiteracy with "Well they have insurance" from the Left.
I have no problem with us sending them newer shit AND I also have no problem with us ramping up our wartime production to support them so that we can make sure our manufacturing sector is up and online before we (god forbid) need to use it in a real war ourselves.
But don't just fucking lie about it man.
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u/aught_one Don't Tread on Me 2d ago
Not true. We're sending cash to fund pensions, police, first responders,
You bought the left wing lie of "it's just old junk!"
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/following-american-money-in-ukraine-60-minutes/
Fuck Ukraine.
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u/Outside_Ad_3888 Moderate Conservative 1d ago
also funds, yes but from the total aid an absolute minority is as you say meant to fund pensions, police, first responders, most of that is being done by the EU.
Summarising briefly
And the good new is that if NATO aid is serious and Ukraine survives or wins, theroff Russia can't expand more the US can cancel US bases in Europe and save more on the long run, plus pump a rearmed Europe for weapons if things go south in Taiwan.
Bad news is that if Ukraine is abbandoned/loses Russia will grow much stronger (and with it Iran and North Korea who are already trading weapons and nuclear intel with Russia), the risk of direct conflict increases exponentially in Europe and in Taiwan following US hesitation plus now Europe even if rearmed will be busy with Russia.
One could also remember the so called agreement where Ukraine gave up nukes in exchange for a gentlemans promise from Russia and US to guarantee its territorial integrity and security, Russia showed what kind of "gentleman" it is for the US we will see. That said this is only a moral argument, not a logical one.
have a good day
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u/vey323 Don't Tread On Me 1d ago
Well no shit. Trump has repeatedly said he'd pull support for Ukraine and would push them to give up territory to Russia. Which is a mistake.
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u/EntranceCrazy918 American Conservative 1d ago
It's not a mistake. It's inevitable. Ukraine isn't getting back its eastern regions unless NATO literally enters a hot war - and nobody (sane) wants that. There is no other scenario where Russia just returns access to Russian-speaking regions and a route connecting mainland Russia to Crimea.
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u/aught_one Don't Tread on Me 2d ago
Of course, he's using our tax dollars to fund their welfare state.
Fuck Ukraine
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u/LittleStar854 Old school Conservative 1d ago
Imagine if Mexico started shooting rockets at American cities and Macron said US should offer them Arizona and Texas for a "peace" deal. It would be more than 7 times if it wasn't for Biden's incomprehensible decisions like blocking them from hitting back at Russia.
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u/Outside_Ad_3888 Moderate Conservative 1d ago
Unsurprising considering people like Taylor Greene, would be strange the opposite
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u/CenterLeftRepublican 2A Conservative 2d ago
Of course.
Sleepy Joe gives them whatever they want with no accountability.
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u/baseball_Lover33 Conservative 2d ago
Well, If Biden gave me Billions of dollars, I'd like him too