r/CharlotteHornets • u/Civrock • Jul 17 '22
Offseason Chat Mega Thread
Now that we're done with Summer League, it's going to be slower again. This is a sticky to hold us over, to chat about anything which doesn't need its own post. Try to keep it Hornets or at least NBA related.
Offseason Key Dates
August 31
• Last day to use the waive and stretch provision
October 4
• Training camp begins
October 15
• Last day to waive a player on a non-guaranteed contract and not incur a salary-cap charge
October 17
• Last day of the offseason
• Last date to sign a rookie scale or veteran extension (two years left on existing deal)
• Rosters are restricted to 15
October 31
• Deadline for third-year and fourth-year team options on rookie contracts to be exercised
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u/issofine Sep 30 '22
Looking forward to preseason on Sunday. I want to see more Mark Williams. Hopefully he can work himself into the regular season rotation
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u/lawlyfawx Sep 23 '22 edited Sep 23 '22
27 days, 27 nights until the Charlotte Hornets’ season opener.
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u/tandtz Sep 21 '22
It’s pretty unanimous that we need a good defensive centre right? So who would we actually like to see, realistically?
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u/Giddf Sep 21 '22
I honestly believe that Markwil is that guy. No worries
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u/Bread_Responsible Sep 28 '22
How long do you think he’s gonna be behind richards and plum? Do you think Clifford is gonna stick to that? Is that just talk for the media right now? It honestly has me terrified. He needs playing time this year. For his development and my sanity.
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u/DanMarinoTambourineo Sep 29 '22
I’m not worried about it. Guys need to earn their minutes. Training camp is for competition. If mark wants minutes he needs to beat out Richards and plumlee. They are so bad according to this sub it shouldn’t be difficult
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Sep 29 '22
yeah but w have plenty of examples over Clifford's five years here, he doesn't mind playing the worse player as long as they have VeTeRaN sAvVy
Mark needs to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's the best option at center very early on if he wants to receive backup minutes this year.
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u/DanMarinoTambourineo Sep 29 '22
This is the dumbest criticism of Clifford I keep seeing. Besides Vonlah and Monk - who did Clifford not play? Turns out wasn’t Clifford holding them back. He played Cody, he played Frank, he played mkg and Jeff Taylor. He developed kemba from middling young guard to an all star.
0
u/Giddf Sep 28 '22
How long do you think he’s gonna be behind richards and plum? Do you think Clifford is gonna stick to that?
I have no idea. Mark is a better player than both so maybe that bears out. But if he doesn't get a spot in the rotation to prove it we could be in a really bad spot.
Is that just talk for the media right now?
Probably not, Clifford usually means what he says.
It honestly has me terrified. He needs playing time this year. For his development and my sanity.
I feel that. I have generally approved of what Clifford has said so far. But when he talked about our centers, my heart sank.
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Sep 21 '22
Mark Williams without Mason Plumlee playing 30mpg in front of him
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u/tandtz Sep 21 '22
Imagine how great it would be if he turned out to be a 30mpg star centre, suddenly the team doesn’t look nearly as grim
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u/verynow Sep 21 '22
Yeah I feel like if Mark can put it together quick and Gordon stays relatively healthy we aren’t as doomed as people think.
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u/CuseMayne Sep 16 '22
Preliminary hearing again continued to September 29th.
Meanwhile, training camp starts September 27th.
Cool.
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u/YizWasHere Sep 11 '22
Man I'm sitting here watching LaMelo highlights and it's hard to even get mildly excited for the season knowing we won't have Miles. Like half the plays are those two connecting on a crazy lob, it sucks that we had two years selling ourselves on the vision of those two leading the future and then it just comes crashing down. Now I just have to pray daily that Kai Jones can fill that void but it's a longshot.
5
u/Alkazard Sep 14 '22
Interestingly, Kelly posted a picture today in the locker rooms of Miles locker/#.
Who knows. I don't think anyone should be writing off Miles playing this year for us, nor in the future. Even if it's disagreeable1
u/Swag_Turtle Sep 12 '22
The player I have the most faith in to be the premier lob finisher for Melo is Bouknight. I have a ton of stock in him.
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Sep 13 '22
Kai and Mark need to be those guys
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u/Swag_Turtle Sep 14 '22
Mark will get his touches for sure. I want Kai to be successful but I’m realistically not too high on him right now.
1
u/HoopKing20 Sep 07 '22
Derrick White rumored to be on trade block still. He would be a great addition. Just don't think Hornets have anything to offer Boston that improves their team. White is better than the three other PGs mentioned (Payton, Thomas, Walker)
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u/Jig-Jag Sep 06 '22
Knicks fan here, wondering how you value our players?
Would you do a this trade:
Reddish, Randle for Hayward
Would add a few 2nds if needed too.
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Sep 07 '22
i don't think anything short of an unprotected Knicks 1st for next season could make me take Randle. There just isn't any use for him here as we already have our army of young PFs to develop.
4 years of Randle at his price is no bueno
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u/dank-kush Sep 07 '22
Wouldn’t do this. Would rather get off Hayward sooner than get Julius for 4 years. Cam reddish ain’t enough to move that needle.
1
u/Jig-Jag Sep 07 '22
Yeh i thought so, what if a 1st round protected pick was in the trade aswell?
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u/DanMarinoTambourineo Sep 08 '22
Really depends on the miles bridges situation. If he’s coming back I think the fit with Randle would be questionable at best
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u/Jig-Jag Sep 08 '22
Ohh is there a chance he’s coming back soon? mainstream media inferred he’s out for a while. Yeh totally agree.
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u/DanMarinoTambourineo Sep 09 '22
He’s going to be suspended but the longest domestic violence suspension in nba history is 24 games. It’ll get plead down. Just doesn’t make sense to take on 4 years of Randle.
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u/Swag_Turtle Sep 06 '22
Montrezl teasing on Twitter that he got signed. Said he was blessed to play for his home team, meaning past tense. So we did not resign him.
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u/CharlotteSportsPod Sep 02 '22
Anyone who wants Donovan Mitchell on the Hornets, but complained when we gave up 132 to the Hawks is a hypocrite.
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u/dank-kush Sep 02 '22
I mean it would help if we scored 133. Donovan elevates his game in the playoffs while terry has choked both of our play in games.
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u/MitchLGC Sep 02 '22
Trading for Mitchell would have been a giant mistake
Gut our draft ability for the next 5 years and trade what little depth we have just to be locked into seed 5-6. We weren't in a spot in the timeline to do it
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Sep 02 '22
5-6 seed would’ve been extremely optimistic.
A trade from us to get him would’ve been Rozier + PJ + Bouknight + 2 FRP + a pick swap.
We’d run into the season w a starting 5 of Melo/Mitchell/Martin/Hayward/Plumlee which would arguably be worse than what we have now.
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Sep 01 '22
I’m officially onboard for a Westbrook trade + immediate buyout.
Rn we’ve got no assets that could net us players that help us rn. Boston, Milwaukee, & Cleveland are gonna dominate the top of the East for a long time and Philly/Toronto/Atlanta/Miami are gonna lock up the rest of the seeds for at least another 2 years. Brooklyn is….Jesus Christ, man.
The only path forward is shedding the big contracts on players not helping our future, getting back 1RPs for them, and using that cap to overpay for all-stars, borderline all-stars, or at the very least a shit ton of great role players like the Clippers have.
Bron is on Pelinka’s neck to trade the Lakers’ picks to dump Russ. Rozier + PJ could honestly do it. Now we’ve got assets and a year from now, damn near $50 mil to spend with no one to extend but Melo. And if Hayward walks the year after, that’s another $40-ish million purely on free agents or absorbing contracts.
Of course, Russ shouldn’t spend a minute in Charlotte. Buy him out immediately and let him sign with Washington for the vet min. I don’t know any other paths forward.
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u/chickenheadj Sep 02 '22
You don’t trade PJ for something like that. Dude is probably the best prospect outside of LaMelo.
I’m down for Westbrook + two 1sts for Terry+Gordon/Oubre. I don’t think this roster sniffs .500 this year and moving on from the vets to get in the Wembanyama running sounds good to me. Why not clear space, pick up some draft collateral, and give the young guys some run?
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u/Decimate_2K Sep 01 '22
I can't be the only one who is unexcitied about this season. I just don't see how this team, especially without Miles, is going to even break .500. If we do, it's probably because LaMelo took a substantial leap to superstardom. It's just so unfortunate that Miles had to turn out to be such a scummy human because he was genuinely a super exciting player to watch. Like, besides LaMelo, what is the intrigue in watching this team when we are neither going to tank or compete seriously?
And we probably hired Clifford with playoff aspirations (which included Miles), so with him gone, it's honestly hard to put playoff expectations on Clifford this season. I just hope the young players' development isn't hindered because of the playoff mandate.
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Sep 01 '22
.500 is a complete pipe dream. LaMelo would have to turn into Luka Doncic for that to be possible.
The teams all around us added a star player (CLE- Mitchell, ATL-Murray, WAS gets Beal back after he missed most of last season). We lost one. The Nets are running it back. We aren't qualifying for the play-in game next season.
I would say it's significantly more likely we win 30 games than 40. Sell off Hayward and we're a bottom 8 team with a reasonable chance of jumping up in the lottery. Either reload after that season by trading the valuable pick we get for immediate talent, or rebuild naturally with LaMelo, Mark, PJ, Bouk, high pick.
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Sep 01 '22
I get on Kupchak pretty hard for not being aggressive but we're absolutely right to sit out on this. There is absolutely no way we could've fielded a quality team after matching that asking price... the Hornets equivalent would've been 3 future 1sts (2025, 2027, 2029), 2 swaps, Rozier, PJ, and one of Bouk/Mark/Kai.
Please enlighten me on what we were supposed to do with this lineup, no cap, and absolutely zero trade assets to improve anything.
The SF/PF rotation is tragic if Hayward misses time, and C is awful if Kai doesn't absolutely blow up. The clock would be ticking down fast- we'd realistically only have two years before Mitchell moved on. We simply wouldn't be ready to be anything more than a 6-7 seed with no realistic chance at being any of the top teams in the first round.
LaMelo/Mitchell/Hayward/McDaniels/Kai
FA PG/Bouknight/Martin/Thor/Richards
would be the 10 man unit we're completely locked into.
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u/ISISCosby Sep 06 '22
All that for a guy in Mitchell who, if we're being honest, is basically a young Terry Rozier with more hype and a worse jump shot.
Sitting that trade out was absolutely the right call
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u/YizWasHere Sep 01 '22
Agreed. In a universe where the Miles situation never happened and we actually got a potential future lottery pick in exchange for 13, I'd be all for going after Mitchell. But with what we've got right now, I don't get how you can rationalize paying a kings ransom for a guy that 1) probably wouldn't stay here and 2) barely makes us a convincing playoff team.
1
u/DanMarinoTambourineo Sep 01 '22
You forgot Miles
1
u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Sep 01 '22
I have no expectation of him being back in a Hornets uniform, and definitely not in this upcoming season... which would be half the time Donovan Mitchell would be in Charlotte.
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u/Giddf Sep 01 '22
His face is still plastered all over the spectrum center. I have an inkling that the org still plans on bringing him back asap
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u/NotoriousTEEK Sep 01 '22
Theoretically our picks would be more valuable so we may not have had to add as many unprotected. The Bridges situation and not making the playoffs (thus not conveying our pick to Atlanta) really screwed us in so many butterfly effect ways.
0
u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Sep 01 '22
at most it would be a difference of one asset. That's not enough to plug all the holes we have already plus the ones we'd create with this trade.
We have to admit that Bridges has likely set us back multiple seasons and that we simply have neither the assets to pull a trade like this nor a roster to compete after said trade. Blame Kupchak for being horrendous at managing trade assets, but this is largely because of Bridges. If we had him, I'd be more comfortable (but still a bit leery of the cost).
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Sep 01 '22
So what do we do now? We gotta field some type of competitive team as soon as possible so Melo knows we’re serious about winning.
2
u/david00012 Sep 01 '22
Cam Reddish is crying out for a trade maybe he's worth a go? He fits our roster perfectly
-1
Sep 01 '22
Cam + PJ as our frontcourt would be lethal. Honestly would trade Bouknight + Kai + a 2RP for him.
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u/Swag_Turtle Sep 01 '22
Cleveland literally got an all star baby big 3 post Lebron quicker than us making the playoffs.
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u/MitchLGC Sep 02 '22
Cleveland is the luckiest franchise of the past 20 years. They've picked #1 way too many times and this time lucked into mobley. Whatever
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u/Kinetik09 Sep 03 '22
Charlotte could’ve gotten Mobley if we tanked Melo’s rookie year when he and Gordon went out. But we wanted to chase the 10 seed. We can talk cash shit about Cleveland but strategic in season decisions like that matters.
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u/NotoriousTEEK Sep 01 '22
The ascension of Garland, lottery luck with Mobley, and acquiring any bigs they could get their hands on even if they didn’t fit at the time positioned them for this. Fantastic job by them and I’m jealous. I think we were really handicapped by not having our own pick. Not making the playoffs last year has spiraled on us so very bad.
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u/Civrock Sep 01 '22
Welp, looks like Donovan Mitchell is going to the Cavs.
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u/muzunguman Sep 01 '22
Listening to David locke out here in SLC on the radio, the hornets also had a very similar package prepared but they liked the Cavs better.
-1
u/armandocalvinisius Aug 23 '22
mavs fan here, trade idea baby
mavs : hayward, plumdog
hornets : bertans, powell, BULLOCK
open to attach 1 SRP if needed
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Aug 23 '22
I'd pass, there's just no real reason for us to downgrade talent by so much if we're not getting a draft pick and we're not even saving money.
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u/armandocalvinisius Aug 23 '22
You need to check my thread in mavs sub then
Homerism is a bitch lmao
3
u/Rhojanxd Aug 25 '22
LOL Very late to this but yeah as a Hornets fan this trade isn't good and the Mavs fans hate it too.
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u/NYJaguar Aug 19 '22
Hi, all.
Non-Hornets fan here.
Who do you think it would be the best complement for LaMelo? You can choose one of each tier.
Tier 1.
Zion Williamson
Evan Mobley
Anthony Edwards
Scottie Barnes
Tier 2.
RJ Barret
Jaren Jackson Jr
Tyler Herro
Tier 3.
Jabari Smith Jr.
Paolo Banchero
Chet Holmgren
Josh Giddey
Alperen Sengun
Herb Jones
Isaac Okoro
James Wiseman
Franz Wagner
Quentin Grimes
Keegan Murray
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u/Norby710 Aug 19 '22
Is there a reason no tickets are available on Ticketmaster? There is no way they already sold them lol
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u/Marcfromblink182 Aug 22 '22
I don’t think single games have gone on sale yet
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u/Norby710 Aug 22 '22
I was checking on Ticketmaster and they have a very small amount of tickets available. But even for like a preseason game it’s like 200 tickets total so it didn’t make a lot of sense.
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u/offensivename Aug 22 '22
Some ticketing websites will list tickets that have not actually been delivered yet.
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u/Norby710 Aug 22 '22
Yeah but not from Ticketmaster, they are clearly labeled resale/direct from the hornets tickets. I talked to a rep and he said more will be released next week anyway.
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u/chaoticneutral1997 Aug 19 '22
Humor me a little. What do you think of this trade?
Thunder gets:
Mason Plumlee
2024 first round pick via Nuggets (top 14 protected)
Hornets get:
Derrick Favors
I feel like if we really wanna improve defensively, we need an established center who has experience with holding down that spot. Williams is, imo 2 years away from being that. Favors anchored the Pelicans defense a couple years ago and made them a top 5 defense for a good stretch. He's 6'9 with 7'5 wingspan and is not afraid to contest at the rim. He also knows Gordon Hayward from their Jazz days. The FRP is most certainly gonna be pick 22-30 since the Nuggets are good and we don't need more rookies.
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Aug 19 '22
Favors > Plumlee but the difference is not a 1st round pick. a mid/late 2nd? sure.
1
u/chaoticneutral1997 Aug 20 '22
Fair. Although we all know Presti is only interested in one thing
1
u/YizWasHere Aug 21 '22
Presti would be happy to do that deal for a second rounder though. The Thunder got a FRP just for taking Favors, the only value he has to them is as salary filler in a potential trade but Plumlee could fill that same role so they're basically taking a 2nd rounder for free.
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u/BottomOne Aug 16 '22
OK, I'm bored. What would we realistically have to give up for Mitchell? I'm apathetic to the trade but curious what it might cost?
1
u/chickenheadj Aug 22 '22 edited Aug 22 '22
3 way trade with LA
Lakers get: Rozier Hayward
Hornets get: Mitchell Bogdanovic
Jazz get: Westbrook Kai or Bouk 3 Hornets 1sts 2 Lakers 1sts
This is what I envision getting it done since I think the Knicks beat us if it’s a 2 team trade.
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u/Tcarr97 Aug 16 '22 edited Aug 16 '22
My guess would be something like:
Jazz get
Hayward
Oubre
Bouknight
Kai
3 unprotected 1st's with a pick swap in their favor
Hornets get
Mitchell
Bogdanovic
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u/BottomOne Aug 16 '22
I'm trying to frame it as, "How much better is Mitchell than Rozier". And looking at your projected trade scenario he's not that better lol.
2
u/Tcarr97 Aug 17 '22
Yeah that's pretty much how I'm looking at it rn. Mitchell is a legit offensive star, but his poor defensive effort the past two years has been well documented. Maybe playing with someone like lamelo could ease the offensive load for mitchell allowing him to give more effort on D. Either way, not entirely sold on the idea of going all in for mitchell.
2
u/HornetsFan_27 Aug 16 '22
This season i just really would like to see thor kai and bouk the minutes they deserve same thing with mcgowens i think he has serious potential
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u/Swag_Turtle Aug 13 '22
Anyone else just insanely bored? I can’t wait for anything to happen.
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u/Rhojanxd Aug 14 '22
Yeah, I keep popping on this sub or r/nba for any news related to the Hornets and there's absolutely nothing.
1
Aug 12 '22
[deleted]
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Aug 13 '22
Not that I expect him to spend one of his final years in the league here, but I would not mind Carmelo playing 20 mpg for some scoring punch to partially replace Miles.
4
u/Beyard Aug 10 '22
What do you guys think the odds are that the Hornets keep Miles around, even for just this next year, versus let him go?
I'd rather not have to cheer for the team he's on but the silence from the organization around this has me a little worried.
0
u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Aug 12 '22
I think he's not on the team next year but he's not waived and his RFA rights carry over to 2023, where they take stock of everything. This is going to be a really slow process.
My guess is Miles gets a suspension after everything maybe does some jail time (but not enough), missing a chunk of 2023-24, but we sign him anyway because MJ straight refuses to rebuild and will take any good athlete that is willing to play here. The contract will be far lower than what he would've got this summer, but high enough that the Hornets will get significant backlash (most deserved) for it anyway.
My hope is they lock him up and throw away the key for years, but we all know rich people have a different judicial system than the rest of us.
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u/Rhojanxd Aug 03 '22
Article theorising what a Mitchell trade would cost the Hornets
A trade package of Mason Plumlee, Terry Rozier, James Bouknight, P.J. Washington and 3-4 first-round draft picks may very well be enough value for the Jazz to take back in a trade involving Mitchell
It is quite possible that if this was a proposed deal from Charlotte to Utah, that the Hornets could ask for former Sixth Man of the Year Jordan Clarkson to be included in this deal with Donovan Mitchell,
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u/a_moniker Aug 04 '22 edited Aug 04 '22
As long as Mitchell wants to come here, and won't try to instantly force his way out, I'd jump at the chance to do a trade of Terry Rozier + James Bouknight + PJ Washington + Denver FRP + Unprotected FRP's in 2025, 2027, and 2029 for Donovan Mitchell. Mitchell is still only 25 years old, and under contract for 4 more years. Plus, we'd have between ~$25 and $30 Million Dollars in Cap Space next off-season, even without finding a way to move Hayward. That's a pretty big deal, since we might actually be able to convince some pretty good free agents to join a team built around LaMelo Ball and Donovan Mitchell.
Even without free agency in 2023, the roster below would still be the Hornets most talented team ever (even including the teams in the 90's).
Roster PG LaMelo Ball (33) Donovan Mitchell (8) Kemba Walker (7) SG Donovan Mitchell (25) Cody Martin (15) Kelly Oubre Jr (8) SF Gordon Hayward (30) Cody Martin (15) Kelly Oubre Jr (3) PF Jalen McDaniels (26) JT Thor (17) Kelly Oubre Jr (5) C Mark Williams (28) Miles Plumlee (20) G-League Kai Jones Bryce McGowens The only real bummer about the whole thing is that Melo + Mitchell + (a non piece of shit) Miles Bridges would have been a legitimate title contender some day. That's a 26 PPG scorer, one of the best playmakers in the NBA, and 20+ PPG 3rd option. Still, even without Miles Bridges, I'd still swing for the fences on a Donovan Mitchell trade. I just wouldn't necessarily giving up a boatload (4+) of unprotected picks and swaps.
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u/YizWasHere Aug 05 '22
I'm glad you took the time to write out that depth chart because it made me realize how much I would not like this trade, that starting lineup would basically be a poor man's version of what the Jazz ran last season and we'd basically have no offense off the bench. Like is it really worth trading 4 picks to be a 45-48 win team at the absolute best?
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u/a_moniker Aug 09 '22 edited Aug 09 '22
I get that, and it’d definitely be a risk. However, bench scoring is a lot easier to find than a 1st or 2nd option. Even without adding anyone, we could pretty easily stagger LaMelo, Mitchell, and Hayward’s (while healthy) minutes. At least for one season, till we can overpay a 3rd option with a max contract.
I’m not in love with the idea either, but I don’t think a duo of LaMelo and Mitchell would be limited to 45 wins at best, particularly if we make good use of the massive cap space we’d have. We also already have a couple good depth guys around them, in Cody Martin and Mark Williams. Both of those guys are the type of defense first guys you’d want to pair around LaMelo and Mitchell.
Overall, I would prefer to just go into a heavy tank this season. However, I doubt that MJ is gonna want to be as bad as we’ll need to be to make that work. Unfortunately, Rozier, LaMelo, Hayward, PJ, and Plumlee is still probably good enough to land us a pick in the 7-9 range, which isn’t really high enough to get a real star potential dude. If we really want to build through the draft then we should trade Rozier for whatever we can get and probably negotiate a buyout with Hayward. Hayward can almost certainly get a tax payer MLE (~$6M) each of the next two seasons, so he should be pretty amenable to around a $12M pay cut next season in a buyout, if we do it now. In that scenario, he’d be getting paid the same amount, and be playing for a contender of his choice.
Then we could try again next season with a top 5 draft pick, max cap space (from cutting ~$12M of Haywards contract), and a ton of experience for Bouknight, Kai, Thor, and Mark Williams.
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Aug 04 '22
with Bridges, I would've maybe thought about it, but i think we're in no-man's land after this trade without him. The resulting team is a catastrophe at SF/PF in any games Hayward misses.
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Jul 31 '22
With the recent follow-up of Shams saying don/knicks talks have stalled as well as listing the wiz/hornets as teams that have recently contacted Utah, do you think the hornets are being served as leverage or an actual potential suitor? Mayo (wiz reporter) seems to believe it's a utah leak, but then again cliff did want to draft don over malik.
If this were indeed true, i'd assume a package would be centered around rozier some of the recent draftees and picks, but with the amount of picks knicks have idk if the hornets have a viable package too.
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u/chickenheadj Aug 01 '22
If we are serious about acquiring Mitchell, we probably need to peel those 1st round picks from the Lakers, right?
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u/Giddf Jul 31 '22 edited Aug 01 '22
It is very likely a Utah leak. Although the hornets are the only other team that can make a competitive offer for Donovan alongside the Knicks. I Ultimately don't see us trading for Mitchell.
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u/issofine Jul 30 '22
So if the hornets go after a veteran PG for the locker room who would you guys rather see? IT who still has a bit more left in the tank or Kemba who’s knees have given up but is loved by the whole city?
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Jul 31 '22
watching Kemba last season wasn't fun but it's clear he still has as much or more in the tank than the 10ish games IT played for us.
Kemba should play a low minute role, maybe not even every game (similar to how JB used IT and Ish last season), but he can still pop off on occasion in ways that IT simply can't. Kemba dropped 29, 21, and 44 in a three game stretch last season. I refuse to believe he's done.
If it's one or another, it's 100% Kemba for me, even doing my best to put aside the obvious bias we all have.
1
u/Swag_Turtle Aug 04 '22
Same. The only thing that makes me lean IT is his impact on the locker room and LaMelo, who has been vocal about wanting IT to come back.
With miles gone, nobody on this team was here when Kemba was, not sure where their relationships with him lie.
1
u/ACCBAN4TRUTHTELLING Jul 30 '22
Between the two of them maybe Kemba since he has familiarity with Clifford, don’t mind we get IT either seems like a good culture guy right now. If possible and idk what it would take to get him, but Pat Bev would be a great locker room guy to have here who can also play solid minutes.
1
u/Bread_Responsible Jul 26 '22
Can someone explain the cash situation to me? It’s like the money we had for miles was only to retain him right? we can’t use it on another FA? I don’t remember exactly what it was.
3
u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Jul 26 '22
We are over the cap, so Miles' Qualifying Offer (the tool that is used to make him a restricted FA) doesn't affect us at all in what we can do. In fact us keeping the QO on the books keeps him from just taking a no-risk 1-year min deal on another team, waiting out his suspension and playing in next year's playoffs or something, so it kinda allows us to keep him "hostage" from my understanding.
We still have the entire MLE ($11M-ish) to use on anybody, completely separate of Miles' situation. There's basically nobody left worth that money, except Sexton (who is worth way more and should take his QO if that's all he can do... and is also literally Rozier if he shot less 3s, so he's turbo-redundant on this roster)
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u/a_moniker Jul 27 '22
We’d actually be slightly below the cap, if we pulled Miles’s qualifying offer. It’s just that even then we’d only have around $4M in cap space, and the non-taxpayer MLE is worth more than that amount. I put the math below.
According to Spotrac, our current active player salary is (including Cody Martin’s new deal and Mark Williams):
$110,944,228
And Batum’s dead cap hit is:
$8,856,969
Which puts us at a total cap hit of:
$110,944,228 + $8,856,969 = $119,801,197
The 2022 Salary Cap is:
$123,655,000
Which means that we’d have the following amount of cap space, if we had renounced our holds on Miles, Harrell, IT, and Scotty Lewis:
$123,655,000 - $119,801,197 = $3,853,803
Miles’s qualifying offer is $7.9 Million, which means it puts us just over the cap
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u/jaynay1 Aug 12 '22
This is incorrect btw; MLE has a cap hold so we're still over in this case and have 0 incentive to waive the MLE hold.
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u/HughGoHornet Jul 26 '22
What would you guys think about Sharife Cooper coming in as a 3rd PG behind presumably Kemba or IT? He was waived by Atlanta.
He looked bad in Summer League, but could be a low risk upside play. I liked his skill set coming into the league.
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u/Swag_Turtle Jul 25 '22
Would you do a Mitchell trade consisting of Rozier/Plumlee for salary and 3 FRPs? According to ESPN trade calculator, it doesn’t impact win projection much and our pick next year might be good so idk but I think I’d do it.
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u/Triggerman77 Jul 26 '22
i'd swap Plumlee with McDaniels Bridges and Bouknight. and send 2 picks instead of 3.
But the Jazz probably says no.
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u/Babylon_Burning Jul 25 '22
Yes absolutely, but the Jazz say no. Rozier won’t be worth anything to them if they are rebuilding and 3 FRP is very low compared to what they’re rumored to be asking for.
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u/offensivename Jul 25 '22
Yeah. That offer's not getting it done. We'd need to include at least one young player. Probably more.
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u/Rhojanxd Jul 25 '22
Yeah it'd be at least someone like PJ and/or Bouknight. We could try to dangle the extra second-rounders we got? Maybe that'd bring us over.
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u/born-ready Jul 23 '22
Watched Trezz in the pro am tonight. Man was getting cooked on D by low level D1 guys.. lol
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u/Beyard Jul 21 '22
We have to have had the worst off-season in the entire NBA, right?
This is awful :(
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u/LocksTheFox Jul 26 '22
It's also not really our fault, no?
Atkinson backing out last second and a certain someone being actual human garbage weren't really things our FO could help
Now, they could've gotten more in that weird pick swap, but aside from that...
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u/Tcarr97 Jul 22 '22
Yeah worst off season by far. But I still don't think our future is completely fucked
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u/DrSharkBird Jul 21 '22 edited Jul 22 '22
Definitely the worst and it’s not even close I think.
It’s tough too because the team is too good to tank without giving up future assets to get off money but not good enough. Just no clear path.
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u/sarithe Jul 20 '22
At this point with everything else that has gone down this off-season, I'm pretty much in the tank mindset. We're getting stuck in the no man's land area where we're too good to get a high lottery pick and not good enough to make any noise in the playoffs. The league isn't built for that to be sustainable. You have to either be good or terrible to set yourself up for long term success.
We NEED a third potential star to pair with Lamelo and (hopefully) either Kai or Mark for the future. I don't think Bouk can be that truthfully. I see him as more of a Desmond Bane type guy. He'll contribute, but he won't be a true star level player imo. Maybe Bryce can be that guy in the future. He showed great flashes in summer league, but that's summer league. Would love to get him some burn during the regular season (along with Kai, Thor, etc since I'm talking about going into tank mode) and see what these young dudes do when thrown into the fire. I get that you want them to develop, but we also need to get a real feel for where they are compared to other NBA caliber players in real games.
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u/ACCBAN4TRUTHTELLING Jul 22 '22
If bouknight reached the level of Desmond Bane, I would be very happy.
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u/offensivename Jul 21 '22
Very optimistic of you to posit that any young player on our team not named Miles Bridges has the potential to become a true #2. Not that I'm saying that we should keep Bridges, of course, but the chances that one of Jones, Thor, Bouknight, or Williams becomes an all-star level player are pretty slim and the chance that McGowan becomes one is nearly nonexistent. It's not impossible for any of them and they could all be useful players even if they never reach that level, so I agree with you that we should prioritize giving them all playing time. But we should also have realistic expectations. If we're going to be a championship contender or even a perennial playoff team in the future, the player who will lead us there alongside LaMelo probably isn't on the team yet.
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u/sarithe Jul 21 '22
I actually agree with your assessment about the number 2 not being on the roster currently. I think whoever we draft next, assuming we tank, has to be that guy unless we bring in someone that is a legit franchise changer. No Myles Turner isn't that guy either as much as part of our fanbase would like to believe otherwise. When I say third star, I just mean a third person to be a star. If Williams gets to that Gobert type level where he is an elite rim defender and rebounder and we find someone to replace Miles' production from the wing then we're set imo. At least when it comes to perennial playoff births. Getting to championship contending is a different leap and is more tied to Lamelo's development than anything else right now. It's Lamelo's team going forward. Especially after we get rid of Gordon's and probably Terry's contracts. Lamelo's development is going to set our ceiling as a franchise.
Honestly, McGowens I think has a way better chance than most are giving him. Again, I realize it was summer league, but he was doing whatever he wanted to on offense. Getting to all the spots with ease and his shooting stroke looks smooth. His defense needs work, but so does Terry and Kelly's and both of them are on the NBA roster. I think if McGowens can buy into Clifford's defensive schemes and continue to progress his offensive game in regards to it working at the NBA level then he'll be more than fine. I have more faith in him than say Kai right now as it stands.
Kai's potential is insane though. Kai hasn't played a ton of organized basketball either. I think people are forgetting that. He's still learning stuff and at least he appears to want to put in the work. That's why I have some faith in him.
Thor might be the most complete of all of them currently, but his offensive game is wildly inconsistent. Defensively he's already there in my opinion and should be getting NBA minutes just based off that. Lord knows we need some people that can legit defend.
As I said in another comment, Bouk to me feels like Jamal Crawford and that's not an insult. Crawford was a very productive NBA player for many years. I just don't think you can build a perennial playoff team around him being one of your best players.
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u/a_moniker Jul 20 '22 edited Jul 20 '22
I agree we should tank. At the very least, we should play the young guys a ton, and not worry about wins. Without Miles, that’ll probably end up with us getting a pretty high draft pick anyway.
We’ll also have near max cap space next off-season, and can either use that to take on bad contracts in exchange for picks, or target another high upside player.
We NEED a third potential star to pair with Lamelo and (hopefully) either Kai or Mark for the future.
In my opinion, we need a real #2, not a #3, which makes it even more imperative that we tank. It’s a lot easier to find a #3 compared to a #2. Kai has some potential to become that, but would require an almost unprecedented leap in his skill level, and I’m not sure I’d bet on that happening. Most likely, he turns into a decent rotation guy, or flames out.
I don’t really see Williams turning into a guy that can create offense either. Honestly, he seems more likely to become a really solid role player, which is still an important part of good team.
I don’t think Bouk can be that truthfully.
I don’t agree with this part. I’m not certain Bouknight will turn into a great player, but he pretty clearly seems to have the most realistic path to becoming a #2 or #3 option on a team. Unlike Kai, Thor, and Williams, he can actually create opportunities for himself and others, which is basically the minimum requirement for a #2 guy. The question with Bouknight isn’t whether he can create shots for himself, it’s whether he can do it at an efficient enough level. By comparison, we don’t know if Kai, Williams, or Thor can create any shots for themselves.
Thor isn’t a write off either. He might honestly end up being a better player than Kai or Bouknight. Like Kai, he is super long and athletic, but he’s displayed way better feel for the game, at least to this point. It’s impossible to teach athleticism, but it’s also very difficult to teach something as nebulous as “feel” for the game.
Maybe Bryce can be that guy in the future. He showed great flashes in summer league, but that’s summer league.
McGowan would need to take a huge leap in order to become that second option. How many 2-Way Contract players become second options in the NBA? Is Middleton basically the only one?
Overall, we need to tank not only to get a high draft pick, but also to find out what we have between Bouknight, Kai, Thor, Williams, and McGowans. Beyond that, it’d also be good to see if LaMelo can handle a bigger scoring load, which he’ll need to do if he ever wants to become a real #1 option.
Tanking also lets us enter next off-season with a lot of cap space. Particularly since Batum’s dead money will finally be off the books, and Hayward becomes a lot more tradeable as an expiring contract. There’s a possibility that we could even retain Hayward’s expiring contract and clear enough cap to target a good player, like Poole or Wiggins.
This off-season basically blew up all of our plans, and it’d be shortsighted to act like we could just move on from that. However, at least if we tank we can enter next season with a clear understanding of our young players abilities, near max cap space, and one of the top wing prospects in next years class. That’d be a much, much more hopeful spot to be in, at least for me.
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u/sarithe Jul 20 '22
Bouk, to me, feels like Jamal Crawford. Crawford was a good to great NBA player, but he was never gonna be a 2nd or 3rd option on a championship team. Nothing wrong with that.
Full disclosure I wasn't super high on Bouk coming out of UConn either. I think he has potential to be really good, but not "build around this guy as part of the core" good.
Mark Williams' ceiling to me feels Gobert-ish. I would consider Gobert a star. He anchored those defenses in Utah. Cleaned up on the boards, got putback dunks, and caught some lobs every now and then. That's all I want Williams to do. That's why I put him in with Melo and someone to build around. Mitchell and Gobert in Utah never had that bonafide 3rd star option to help them, which is why they flamed out every year. I feel like going into tank mode, getting a top 5 pick next year and building around them, Melo, and whoever emerges from Bouk, Thor, Kai, and Williams is our best bet going forward.
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u/offensivename Jul 21 '22
Mitchell and Gobert in Utah never had that bonafide 3rd star option to help them
Jingles slander.
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u/CuseMayne Jul 19 '22
Does anyone know about what sort of clarity we could get from Miles' court date tomorrow? Enough to act on the QO one way or another...?
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u/AustinMC12 Jul 19 '22
Yeah, I’m interested to see what happens. I’m not too familiar with court proceedings and stuff, but I think the first court date is if someone declares guilty or not guilty. I could also be 1000% wrong, but I’m thinking we will get something that’ll give the FO a decision to make.
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u/SneedleVision Jul 20 '22
He’ll enter a plea (not guilty) and set a date for preliminary hearing. He could waive his right to a speedy trial and that hearing could get pushed to months down the road.
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u/Alkazard Jul 20 '22
I would disagree, I think that it'll be at least a multi-week process and there probably wont be any FO-impacting information til at least mid August.
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u/Giddf Jul 19 '22
Can we bring back IT on a vet min? Would love it if we did that
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u/Babylon_Burning Jul 20 '22
If it’s an option, I think I’d rather have Kemba back than IT. Though if Kemba isn’t interested, IT would be good.
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u/Bread_Responsible Jul 19 '22
Turner and Hield for PJ and Gordon? I’m about it!!
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u/a_moniker Jul 19 '22
I wouldn’t mind it, as long as we aren’t sending additional draft picks or anything. Turner would improve our defense a ton, and has some experience playing in a 2 big lineup. We’d also open max cap space in 2023.
This could set up a second move as well, where we could use Plumlee ($8M) + the Denver Pick to add some wing depth.
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u/ThesfeW2 Jul 19 '22
Only issue is we’d likely have nobody at the 4 except for jalen/Thor. And they’re getting there but aren’t ready to be the entire 4 rotation. Also, Turner and Mark Williams are both much much better when paired with a 4 like PJ.
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u/dave-train Jul 17 '22
Just heard Ashley Shahahmadi on NBATV for the pels/thunder game, is she still gonna be covering hornets this year or did she move on? If so, good for her, but I'll miss her! She was doing her classic super-researched player deep dive on John Butler Jr., always fun to hear what she turns up.
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u/bigmeech57 Jul 19 '22
She’ll be back next season but I’d say it’s not long before she leaves for a national gig. Same with EC. Enjoy it while it lasts!
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u/buzzcitybonehead Jul 19 '22
Pretty awesome to see how far Stephanie Ready has gone since she left.
Say what you want about the basketball product; our broadcast coverage has been absolutely top notch for really the entire franchise’s history.
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u/a_moniker Jul 17 '22
Any word on Kemba Walker? He negotiated a buyout from the Pistons, and there were rumors we’d be interested in bringing him back as our 3rd string pg.
If not Kemba, who do you think we’ll use the MLE on? Who is still available? Salary shouldn’t be an issue now that we’re not signing Miles to a big contract.
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u/rklthbrdg Jul 19 '22
my hope is that we sign a backup PG like dennis schroder for cheap to get a competent PG who can actually run the team while melo is on the bench
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u/sarithe Jul 20 '22
Please not Schroder specifically, but yes someone like that would be ideal as our true backup PG to me as well. Someone that is a borderline starter for some teams, but can easily run an offense to where we don't experience such a huge drop off with Lamelo on the bench.
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u/rklthbrdg Jul 21 '22 edited Jul 21 '22
why not schroder specifically? also should we sign a defensive FA like Eric Bledsoe ?
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u/sarithe Jul 21 '22
Schroder has a history of off the court issues along with attitude issues that I would like to keep out of our locker room. Especially given current events. We need some good quality vets in there that can establish a good culture and teach these young dudes how to act both on and off the court.
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u/BetweenTheBuzzAndMe Jul 18 '22
probably waiting for the KD/Kyrie dominoes to drop, like everyone else
bet he wants to see if there's a contender he can latch onto and give 15mpg to instead of playing that role for a 36-46 team like us.
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Jul 17 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Rhojanxd Jul 17 '22
Welcome to the world of business. Unfortunately, this is nothing new. Hope you find a good team!
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u/IndustryChanging Jul 17 '22
What do you guys think Lamelo’s biggest jump will be in this third season? Defense?
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u/a_moniker Jul 17 '22 edited Jul 17 '22
I think he’s gonna do a lot better in the pick and roll game this year. Despite his excellent ball handling and passing, he only scored 0.79 PPP in pick and roll possessions, which is pretty bad. For comparison, most good to great PG’s in the league score around 1 Points Per Possession in those situations.
Part of his struggles were do to his inability to score around the rim (he shot 35.7% in pick and roll situations), and that should improve as he becomes stronger. The other reason he struggled was because Plumlee was his primary roll option, and Plumlee is terrible as a roll man. PJ also struggled a ton rolling to the hoop. Now that LaMelo has Mark Williams (and possibly Kai Jones), his effectiveness in the pick and roll should improve a ton.
It’d also be great if we could bring in a veteran PG with a lot of experience running the pick and roll, to show LaMelo some tricks. For example, that’s something that Kemba was always solid at, even despite his size.
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u/No_Mammoth_4945 Jul 17 '22
He’s gonna be asked to score a bit more. We have a glaring 20 ppg hole that needs to be filled post-bridges & I wouldn’t be surprised if lamelo stepped up to about 24 a game
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u/HughGoHornet Jul 17 '22
I think an underrated aspect of the game that I think would help both his own numbers and our offense as a whole is if he rebounds more, which is something I think he’s realistically capable of.
If he pushes double digit rebounds a night that adds a few potential transition points and assists to his averages alone.
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u/Rhojanxd Jul 17 '22
Probably leadership and improved offense.
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u/SportsNAnime Jul 17 '22
He definitely needs to step up on leadership for sure MB seemed like he was the leader more than Melo so hopefully he steps up to the plate
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u/Civrock Sep 30 '22
Some important offseason dates: